Author Topic: The Recent Devastation of Marriage  (Read 16894 times)

Dave Likeness

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2013, 09:38:35 AM »
In the article, Mr. Joseph Bottum makes
no reference to Holy Scripture when he
endorses same-sex marriage. Of course
he is not a theologian and looks at this
issue as a civil right.  The church needs
to examine the Scriptures and share the
Biblical view that same-sex marriage is
not part of God's plan for his creation.


John Mundinger

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2013, 09:46:24 AM »
In the article, Mr. Joseph Bottum makes
no reference to Holy Scripture when he
endorses same-sex marriage. Of course
he is not a theologian and looks at this
issue as a civil right.  The church needs
to examine the Scriptures and share the
Biblical view that same-sex marriage is
not part of God's plan for his creation.

Pr. Likeness - is it possible for the Church to say that same-sex marriage is not part of God's plan for His creation and yet accept same-sex couples who confess Christ as Lord?

It seems to me that, if we take the Lutheran understanding of Law/Gospel seriously, we have to begin from the assumption that none of us lives in a manner that is part of God's plan for His creation.  We are all deviants.  Why give so much special attention to one particular variety?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Dave Likeness

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2013, 10:07:55 AM »
If same sex-couples in a gay marriage
really confess that Christ is the Lord of
their life, then they will honor His Will
that marriage is for one man and one
woman. If two homosexuals want to
live together they can legally do it.
But there is no need to blaspheme
God's design for marriage of one wife
and one husband.  Marriage is to be
honored as God's institution and gay
marriage should be dishonored as
man's invention.

Dave Likeness

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2013, 10:20:47 AM »
Mr. Mundinger, marriage is also under attack
from divorce.  50 percent of traditional
marriages end in divorce courts.  This is not
pleasing to God.  Cohabitation has reached
epidemic proportions with 7.5 million couples
involved. This trend is causing havoc with
traditional marriage and God's will for us.

Bottom Line:  The church cannot cave-in to
the current culture and close our eyes to
divorce, cohabitation, and gay-marriage.
We must continue to teach the truth of
Holy Scriptures.

John Mundinger

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2013, 10:35:33 AM »
Bottom Line:  The church cannot cave-in to
the current culture and close our eyes to
divorce, cohabitation, and gay-marriage.
We must continue to teach the truth of
Holy Scriptures.

Pr. Likeness - I am not suggesting that the Church cave into current culture.  But, I struggle with the question of what does it mean for the Church to be relevant in the current culture.  We are the Church.  We live in the current culture.  I don't think we can avoid that question.  We worship the Christ who, although He hates sin, loves the sinner.  I don't think that treating sinners who are caught up in the culture as anathema is a good answer to the difficult question.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

readselerttoo

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2013, 10:53:24 AM »
A critical part of this argument is that from Christ's side each and all are loved.  From a sinner's side it is repentance and faith that brings the sinner into the effectiveness and merits of Christ's death on the cross.  Sinners in general do not automatically get Christ's love but upon faith in Christ's promise of forgiveness a sinner receives that promise.  I think we get stuck in generalities regarding the effectiveness of Christ's merits.  Christ's merits from the cross (ie. forgiveness, love, etc.) are for everybody, yes.  But only a sinner who is called and believes in Christ's forgiveness, that it is for that sinner, is the effectiveness of Christ's merits received and os effective for that person at that time.  See Genesis 12 and Abraham.

Dave Likeness

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2013, 11:51:55 AM »
Pastor Rahn, your above post makes an
excellent distinction between the law
and the gospel. 

It seems that the official ELCA line is that the
Biblical texts that condemn same sex sexual
activity do not address homosexual people
who are in committed relationships.
This antinomian stance  gives approval to
gay marriage.  Obviously, the truth of
Holy Scriptures condemns all sexual activity
between homosexuals as sin.

Harry Edmon

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2013, 12:13:04 PM »
In the article, Mr. Joseph Bottum makes
no reference to Holy Scripture when he
endorses same-sex marriage. Of course
he is not a theologian and looks at this
issue as a civil right.  The church needs
to examine the Scriptures and share the
Biblical view that same-sex marriage is
not part of God's plan for his creation.

Pr. Likeness - is it possible for the Church to say that same-sex marriage is not part of God's plan for His creation and yet accept same-sex couples who confess Christ as Lord?

It seems to me that, if we take the Lutheran understanding of Law/Gospel seriously, we have to begin from the assumption that none of us lives in a manner that is part of God's plan for His creation.  We are all deviants.  Why give so much special attention to one particular variety?
Does the same-sex couple who confess Christ as Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  If not, then they are just like any of the rest of us who try to justify our sin instead of confess it (1 John 1:8-10). 

The "special" attention is due to two factors:

1. It is the sin that is most in the news.
2. Many claim it is not a sin.

I know I have "favorite sins" that I continue to commit.   But I acknowledge and confess them as sins and try to amend my life in response to God's gracious forgiveness in Jesus Christ.
Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

readselerttoo

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2013, 12:17:35 PM »
One of the curses (and in places, blessings!) of modernity is the pervasiveness of public opinion as well as public expression of opinion via various forms of media.  ELCA as one public institution among others needs to take a step back from its public role of opinion-making and grasp its unique and greater role on the mission front in terms of the Gospel.  No other earthly institution is given this divine mandate.

Having said that, since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God it is incumbent for sinners of all stripes to become aware of the danger we face in terms of God's judgment.  Through the law comes the knowledge of sin....each sinner, ie. homosexual partners as well as heterosexual partners each face judgment in their sin as sinners. 

And having said that, to me, it is clear in Scripture that the estate of marriage (I'm not talking about the people engaged within that order but rather I am talking about the order itself) biblically is framed from the get-go as an arena in which one man and one woman occupy ala Genesis 2:24.  There is no order situating an arena into which two of the same sex could enter because that order does not exist.  But who said modernity would understand this anyway? 

God's management of God's creation is based on these orders in which human beings occupy and live out their lives as sinners where God does not wait to see how we act but through his immediate judgment of death (sterbenmussen) works out individual fate.  Again St. Paul...through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 12:20:37 PM by readselerttoo »

John Mundinger

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2013, 01:48:57 PM »
Does the same-sex couple who confess Christ as Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  If not, then they are just like any of the rest of us who try to justify our sin instead of confess it (1 John 1:8-10).

Does the heterosexual couple who confess that Christ is Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  Does the person who is committed to celibacy who also confesses Christ as Lord accept the fact that he also is an adulterer?

The "special" attention is due to two factors:

1. It is the sin that is most in the news.
2. Many claim it is not a sin.

I know I have "favorite sins" that I continue to commit.   But I acknowledge and confess them as sins and try to amend my life in response to God's gracious forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

Perhaps.  But, those who think a homosexual lifestyle is a sin that deserves special attention are doing more than their fair share to make headlines.

I know I have "favorite sins" that I continue to commit.   But I acknowledge and confess them as sins and try to amend my life in response to God's gracious forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

That really is the point.  Everyone of us is in that boat and a pastor cannot know that a partnered homosexual is not in the same place as you on that score unless the pastor has actually counseled with the person.  You are justified by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ not on your commitment to live the sanctified life.  Why do some Christians insist on placing that burden on the partnered homosexual?


And having said that, to me, it is clear in Scripture that the estate of marriage (I'm not talking about the people engaged within that order but rather I am talking about the order itself) biblically is framed from the get-go as an arena in which one man and one woman occupy ala Genesis 2:24.  There is no order situating an arena into which two of the same sex could enter because that order does not exist.  But who said modernity would understand this anyway? 

Pastor Rahn - I agree with you regarding the estate of marriage.  However, that arena also was framed prior to the fall.  Even though that arena is designed for heterosexual couples, what is the basis for assuming that heterosexual couples can enter it after the fall?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 01:55:07 PM by John Mundinger »
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Harry Edmon

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2013, 02:28:05 PM »
Does the same-sex couple who confess Christ as Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  If not, then they are just like any of the rest of us who try to justify our sin instead of confess it (1 John 1:8-10).

Does the heterosexual couple who confess that Christ is Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  Does the person who is committed to celibacy who also confesses Christ as Lord accept the fact that he also is an adulterer?
My heterosexual relationship with my wife is NOT in and of itself sinful.   However it is true that I commit sins, even within that relationship.
 
A homosexual relationship is in and of itself my definition sinful.

If you do not see the difference between these two then we have nothing more to discuss.
Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

readselerttoo

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2013, 02:57:41 PM »
Does the same-sex couple who confess Christ as Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  If not, then they are just like any of the rest of us who try to justify our sin instead of confess it (1 John 1:8-10).

Does the heterosexual couple who confess that Christ is Lord accept the fact that their relationship is sinful?  Does the person who is committed to celibacy who also confesses Christ as Lord accept the fact that he also is an adulterer?

The "special" attention is due to two factors:

1. It is the sin that is most in the news.
2. Many claim it is not a sin.

I know I have "favorite sins" that I continue to commit.   But I acknowledge and confess them as sins and try to amend my life in response to God's gracious forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

Perhaps.  But, those who think a homosexual lifestyle is a sin that deserves special attention are doing more than their fair share to make headlines.

I know I have "favorite sins" that I continue to commit.   But I acknowledge and confess them as sins and try to amend my life in response to God's gracious forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

That really is the point.  Everyone of us is in that boat and a pastor cannot know that a partnered homosexual is not in the same place as you on that score unless the pastor has actually counseled with the person.  You are justified by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ not on your commitment to live the sanctified life.  Why do some Christians insist on placing that burden on the partnered homosexual?


And having said that, to me, it is clear in Scripture that the estate of marriage (I'm not talking about the people engaged within that order but rather I am talking about the order itself) biblically is framed from the get-go as an arena in which one man and one woman occupy ala Genesis 2:24.  There is no order situating an arena into which two of the same sex could enter because that order does not exist.  But who said modernity would understand this anyway? 

Pastor Rahn - I agree with you regarding the estate of marriage.  However, that arena also was framed prior to the fall.  Even though that arena is designed for heterosexual couples, what is the basis for assuming that heterosexual couples can enter it after the fall?



From God's side the order is operative because it is God's good created order both prior and post-fall.  Sinners occupy God's good orders.  God is not simply the creator and preserver post-fall but at the very same time also judge within his good orders.  Sinners who occupy these good orders are both subject to evil as well as to God's judgment of death, ie.  because you have disobeyed the commandment to not eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ala Genesis 2 you must die (sterbenmussen).  The estate of marriage is a good order of God for the one sinner, male and the one sinner, female.  Within that order sinners work out their fate as sinners and for Christians, their fate as redeemed sinners.

John Mundinger

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2013, 03:36:33 PM »
From God's side the order is operative because it is God's good created order both prior and post-fall.  Sinners occupy God's good orders.  God is not simply the creator and preserver post-fall but at the very same time also judge within his good orders.  Sinners who occupy these good orders are both subject to evil as well as to God's judgment of death, ie.  because you have disobeyed the commandment to not eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ala Genesis 2 you must die (sterbenmussen).  The estate of marriage is a good order of God for the one sinner, male and the one sinner, female.  Within that order sinners work out their fate as sinners and for Christians, their fate as redeemed sinners.

So, if sinners occupy God's good orders; work out their fate as sinners; and, Christians do so as redeemed sinners; what is there to exclude homosexuals from functioning according to that same formula?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

readselerttoo

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2013, 04:01:49 PM »
From God's side the order is operative because it is God's good created order both prior and post-fall.  Sinners occupy God's good orders.  God is not simply the creator and preserver post-fall but at the very same time also judge within his good orders.  Sinners who occupy these good orders are both subject to evil as well as to God's judgment of death, ie.  because you have disobeyed the commandment to not eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ala Genesis 2 you must die (sterbenmussen).  The estate of marriage is a good order of God for the one sinner, male and the one sinner, female.  Within that order sinners work out their fate as sinners and for Christians, their fate as redeemed sinners.

So, if sinners occupy God's good orders; work out their fate as sinners; and, Christians do so as redeemed sinners; what is there to exclude homosexuals from functioning according to that same formula?



My issue is not about hetero- or homo- but about God's orders.  There is not a divine order/estate into which two people of the same sex can enter, ie. marriage.  My argument is different than the others.  Of course sinners can create all sorts of configurations and "bless" them and even call God's blessing upon it.  Sinners do this.  But in God's sight all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God including the configurations which sinners create.  Just my two cents.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 04:32:02 PM by readselerttoo »

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Recent Devastation of Marriage
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2013, 04:29:45 PM »

I might be putting words into your mouth, but I believe that the criteria of publicly accountable, life-long, and monogamous define the marriage relationship.


One wonders how you defined the marriage relationship before the ELCA task force introduced you to "publicly accountable, life-long, and monogamous."

One also wonders why, apart from references to the ELCA's Social Statement, no one seems to describe "marriage" this way you consider so basic.
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