Author Topic: Resolution 3-10  (Read 22439 times)

Don Whitbeck

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2013, 04:04:08 AM »
@peter - have you heard any discussion about this one? Is it possible to strike a clause or two and still amend and pass it? Please, please post anything you hear about it ok?

BTW, I greatly appreciate the coverage you are providing. Between this forum, several others, Twitter and live coverage - I am able to (sort of) follow things I care about :)


Why can't these people be placed in a congregation as an assistant pastor, until a full time position is open. All we hear about is the shortage of Pastors, if that is the case, then you found away to fill these shortages, by giving these men an offering of a Pastor-ship, to serve in.

This whole question is a shame. You would think that Pastors and Chaplains would receive better treatment then this.

A pew setter!

There is no reason why these men can't be placed as assistant or associate pastors in a congregation.  Why doesn't your congregation call one?

Perhaps therein lies part of the issue.  There are enough non-CRM pastors around that few congregations want to take a chance on a CRM pastor when they have other options.  For the same reason, not all seminary graduates have been placed at call day in the past few years.

Mike

We just rec'd a new Pastor. Let him and the church leadership, decide what they want to do in the future.  There was talk about an assistant pastor a year ago, and whether we wanted to remain in the Victor program in the future.  I guess you can't have both.

Regards,

The Voice of God will NEVER Contradict the Word of God

peter_speckhard

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2013, 10:39:17 AM »
@peter - have you heard any discussion about this one? Is it possible to strike a clause or two and still amend and pass it? Please, please post anything you hear about it ok?

BTW, I greatly appreciate the coverage you are providing. Between this forum, several others, Twitter and live coverage - I am able to (sort of) follow things I care about :)
As I was driving yesterday (well, not when I was driving but when I was riding shotgun) I was following this in one of the closed chatroom and most of the guys were convinced that the chair of the floor committee was deliberately running out the clock so they wouldn't have to deal with it. They were pretty upset about it, but said that Harrison can bring it back to the floor today if he wants even if that floor committee doesn't have any more allotted time.

sirrahbed

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2013, 01:34:21 PM »
@ Peter thank you for the reply! I think I was in that same chatroom yesterday and it did seem that time was running out - however they dealt with it so quickly first thing this morning that there was no discussion and I am not real sure just which version was passed. One of the amended versions from an earlier Today's Business is slightly different from the one in Wednesday's version. It the passed version available somewhere? Thanks!

Dave Likeness

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2013, 01:46:06 PM »
On Thursday am a resolution 3-10 A was
passed which calls for a Task Force
Committee to report on this issue in two
and a half years.  Basically kicking the can
down the road.

David Garner

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2013, 02:16:03 PM »
On Thursday am a resolution 3-10 A was
passed which calls for a Task Force
Committee to report on this issue in two
and a half years.  Basically kicking the can
down the road.

That really is a shame.  Perhaps the fact that it is being studied will spur DPs to try to do what they can to alleviate the stigma attached to CRM status.  And perhaps President Harrison will speak out more about the plight of these pastors.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

sirrahbed

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2013, 02:31:40 PM »

That really is a shame.  Perhaps the fact that it is being studied will spur DPs to try to do what they can to alleviate the stigma attached to CRM status.  And perhaps President Harrison will speak out more about the plight of these pastors.

I also hope that some of the more conscientious DP's will take this as you state, David. I was very happy to hear the prayer for "CRM and church workers  without calls who long to serve"

In the case of my son Jason, he does have a brand new DP (Dan May) and I have every hope that he will once again have a full-time call. Over the past year I have really come to know several men who were CRM due to the economy and no fault of their own - and know how a show of care and offer of help means so much to them.

Pastor Charles Lehmann suggested several amendments that would have gone into effect this coming September, but unfortunately they were not included - so in some ways it seems the whole mess was kicked down the road as stated above - still I am thankful for the attention they did get.

Also there is yet another pastor who has been trying to get support for CRM men and he has started a website that can be used to match up vacant congregations with candidates. I would prefer help from within the system, but this pastor works outside to help the men. The site is called LostPastors http://www.lostpastors.org/SitePages/Home.aspx


LCMS87

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2013, 03:28:50 PM »
Pastor Charles Lehmann suggested several amendments that would have gone into effect this coming September, but unfortunately they were not included - so in some ways it seems the whole mess was kicked down the road as stated above - still I am thankful for the attention they did get.

Pr. Lehmann's proposed substitute resolution was never offered from the floor.  Realistically I don't think it would have made much real difference even if it had been adopted. Most congregations seeking to call a pastor aren't prepared to deal with a list with more than a hundred names but no more information.

Having the resolution as passed, however, gives President Harrison additional leverage as he seeks to show mercy to soldiers of the cross.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2013, 03:44:41 PM »
I think the hefty elephant hiding in this closet, and what makes the CRM issue somewhat political in a way that someone looking in from the outside wouldn't suspect, is that I would guess (I don't have the numbers-- this is just my sense of the situation) a disproportionate number of the guys on CRM who aren't returning missionaries or chaplains or coming back from medical/personal issues are very conservative guys whose congregations decided they weren't a "good fit" because they made a stink about closed communion or had a problem with contemporary worship or something. In other words, if you break down exactly why the CRM guys are CRM, the categories would include people who simply got riffed due to the economy (smaller churches or multi-staff situations where the congregation could no longer afford salary and benefits) or do to terms of service ending (e.g. chaplains/missionaries), people who had medical/personal issues for which they had to resign calls in order to take care of things, people who went on to get a Ph.D or took some career interlude with a parachurch or secular organization, guys who got suspended for false doctrine or scandalous life and, having worked it out, are ready for a  new call, and lastly, guys whose congregations ran them out on a rail because they weren't with the congregation's program and were too conservative. These guys were never formally charged with anything, they just weren't a "good fit" so the congregation basically got rid of them by hook or by crook. They never formally say that, of course, so these guys are technically interspersed through the other lists with reasons given as face-saving fig leaves, sort of like politicians who resign to spend more time with the family or actors who check into the Betty Ford Clinic for exhaustion. Congregations are aware of this, as are DP's, but nobody will say it with more than a knowing glance.

This is also why this issue relates to some of the problems people have with SMP. Many of the big suburban churches don't want a sem grad because they never know if they're going to get someone who is on board with the congregation's peculiarities (read open communion, non-Lutheran pastoral staff or other controversial thing) so they want to raise up their own pastors from within, thus insulating them from any possible change of direction imposed by the leadership. It isn't the "confessional" guys raising up SMP assciate pastors, it is the innovative, transforming, missional, or ELCA-sympathetic churches who don't want to risk getting a sem grad who's going to be all fuddy-duddy about the Confessions or embarrassing LCMS peculiarities.

The missional folks see it from the other side. They see those complaining (again, that means not returning missionaries and chaplains, but CRM guys whose former congregations ran them out) as people not in need of calls but in need of full time salaries and benefits but who don't want to do any of the things it takes to have a congregation big enough to provide those things. These congregations have done the church growth work and don't want to be a sugar daddy for people who are against what they have done and continue to do. Their attitude is-- you like polices and practices that work really well for churches of fifty? Go ahead and find a church of fifty to pay your salary, don't come grousing around here sniffing that you can't get considered for a call from a viable congregation. You're the reason congregations aren't viable, and we have the witness of your former congregation's numerical struggles (until they got rid of you) as proof.

Let me emphasize this is only my sense of the situation. Take it for what it is worth. It isn't as though I've had secret conversations with insiders about this. I just think there is a lot beneath the surface, and the guys are really are on CRM for perfectly above board reasons pay the price, because we've allowed the number to accumulate of pastors who were simply discarded by their congregations as "not a good fit." 

Wallenstein

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2013, 03:47:11 PM »
Also there is yet another pastor who has been trying to get support for CRM men and he has started a website that can be used to match up vacant congregations with candidates. I would prefer help from within the system, but this pastor works outside to help the men. The site is called LostPastors http://www.lostpastors.org/SitePages/Home.aspx

Shortage of pastors?  What shortage?  Maybe those CRM guys could start their own denomination.  How many CRM pastors have defected to other denominations so they can have jobs?

Joke.  Even public school teachers who leave a school district due to the lack of a "good fit" can easily apply for another position with a different school district.  No problem.  How about all of those stay at home moms who want to resume teaching after an 18 year absence from the classroom.  What about certified teachers who left teaching to work as accountants for a few years and want to return to the classroom?  No problem.

Why aren't sabbaticals permitted for LCMS pastors?  University professors take them every few years for many reasons and have their jobs waiting for them when they return.

By the way, why does a congregation have to dump the hymnal as one of the first steps in becoming "viable."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 04:21:01 PM by Wallenstein »

John_Hannah

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2013, 04:37:05 PM »
I think the hefty elephant hiding in this closet, and what makes the CRM issue somewhat political in a way that someone looking in from the outside wouldn't suspect, is that I would guess ...

Let me emphasize this is only my sense of the situation. Take it for what it is worth. It isn't as though I've had secret conversations with insiders about this. I just think there is a lot beneath the surface, and the guys are really are on CRM for perfectly above board reasons pay the price, because we've allowed the number to accumulate of pastors who were simply discarded by their congregations as "not a good fit."

You could be right, Pete. I keep saying what are the facts? There's a lot of speculation in the direction you suggest, but can it be supported by hard data? I don't know but would like to.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

ghp

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2013, 05:41:51 PM »
I think the hefty elephant hiding in this closet, and what makes the CRM issue somewhat political in a way that someone looking in from the outside wouldn't suspect, is that I would guess ...

Let me emphasize this is only my sense of the situation. Take it for what it is worth. It isn't as though I've had secret conversations with insiders about this. I just think there is a lot beneath the surface, and the guys are really are on CRM for perfectly above board reasons pay the price, because we've allowed the number to accumulate of pastors who were simply discarded by their congregations as "not a good fit."

You could be right, Pete. I keep saying what are the facts? There's a lot of speculation in the direction you suggest, but can it be supported by hard data? I don't know but would like to.

Peace, JOHN

I think Peter is spot on with his analysis, but I also understand where your (for lack of a better word) skepticism comes from, John.

I don't think it's possible for there to be "hard" data, as so much of this is based on "soft" or subjective circumstances/context. That said, I do think it's possible that, as is so often done in the empirical social sciences, a hard look could be taken at the data that does exist, classifying it based on a realistic assessment of just why men are CRM. But not the current state of winking & nodding & glossing over certain reasons as not really existing b/c "we don't do things that way in the LCMS!"

If we can eventually get to a point via Koinonia where certain issues are commonly acknowledged not only as extant, but also as having commonly held definitions, then there's some hope for moving forward towards a pleasing and acceptable resolution.

-ghp

John_Hannah

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2013, 06:10:16 PM »
Probably the biggest factor is the same condition that causes us to have seminary graduates for whom there are no calls. Our congregations are going down faster than pastors. According to Ms. Sirrahbed that is the case for her son. It's simply another face of the same problem.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

JMK

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2013, 06:32:22 PM »
Quote
Probably the biggest factor is the same condition that causes us to have seminary graduates for whom there are no calls. Our congregations are going down faster than pastors. According to Ms. Sirrahbed that is the case for her son. It's simply another face of the same problem.

Peace, JOHN

Yep, it is like a game of musical chairs. As more and more churches become financially unable to support church workers, there will continue to be more frustrated clergy. There are only so many LCMS churches to go around these days and far too many clergy scrambling to get calls to the churches that are able to support them financially.

It is probably something that another convention needs to address, but the Synod should step in and start offering extra early retirement benefit packages to older clergy members. This way more of the younger pastors can have a fair chance at getting a compatible match/call that fits them just right with their particular gifts, talents and PIF answers. Some sort of resolution also needs to be made so that money coming from the sale of churches that close, will go towards this early retirement fund.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 06:38:42 PM by Johannes Andreas Quenstedt »

Weedon

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2013, 08:26:04 PM »
I think there's another side to the story, too. I think it is inevitable that our District Presidents desire congregations in their districts to share their own ideology. When there is a congregation that does not, they seek to give them a pastor who will be more in line with the DP's own thinking. What would happen if the DPs gave the name of EVERY man on candidate status to every congregation that is vacant or calling in addition to those of pastors who have a call but are seeking another? And what if these names were given without editorial comment, but simply acknowledging that in our fellowship, every person on this list is certainly eligible to serve any congregation of our Synod. What would happen if the politics were simply taken out of the equation for the sake of offering each parish the widest variety of candidates possible?

Pastor Ted Crandall

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Re: Resolution 3-10
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2013, 08:49:51 PM »
I think there's another side to the story, too. I think it is inevitable that our District Presidents desire congregations in their districts to share their own ideology. When there is a congregation that does not, they seek to give them a pastor who will be more in line with the DP's own thinking. What would happen if the DPs gave the name of EVERY man on candidate status to every congregation that is vacant or calling in addition to those of pastors who have a call but are seeking another? And what if these names were given without editorial comment, but simply acknowledging that in our fellowship, every person on this list is certainly eligible to serve any congregation of our Synod. What would happen if the politics were simply taken out of the equation for the sake of offering each parish the widest variety of candidates possible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W84-59pc7Tc