Res. 501A To Establish Specific Ministry Pastor Program

[peter_speckhard]

TV, I also can only speak of the instances I'm familiar with, and they're very different from yours. But I don't want to address specific situations negatively. I was an enlisted grunt, but we did have some West Point cadets help out with basic training and just going by the way they were treated and the way they carried themselves I very much doubt they were in danger of graduating with a big debt and no job. And that is another thing about the M. Div. But you bring up a good point. The military goes by merit. Okay. How should that translate to the ministry? What makes a good pastor measurably better than an average pastor? Because that is part of the salt in the wounds of the traditional route guys on CRM-- the assumption that they just didn't have what it takes.

I realize I've turned the conversation to another topic, from SMP to CRM, but I think they are related , at least in terms of people's emotions, which is really what I'm tying to put forward. For the sale of ministry we have to make things work, but for the sake loving our neighbor we gave to understand what motivates some our disagreements and show some understanding for the attitudes people have. Yes, it is quite possible that at the convention in a discussion of SMP oversight there were conversations about its deficiencies. And yes, in other rooms there was probably grumbling about "top down" need for control and sense of being threatened being imputed to those who have problems with SMP. But I still don't see in any concrete way how the convention failed your friend. What, specifically, was he hoping for in terms of encouragement? What did he find discouraging? How is his experience a valid rebuke of the synod in convention and what should have been different? All you've said so far is that nobody approached him at the sem booth.

[Timotheus Verinus]

Intermission...
Totally unrelated to the subject side note ... But prompted by the discussion. I got nostalgic wondering where are they now? The ROTC O-6 passed away 3 years ago, retired as a Major General. He received his commission through AF ROTC at Baylor University. Maybe Baylor wasn't a party school? He made Major General pretty fast just the same. His official date of rank July '79 was 22 years after graduating from Baylor. His fast track Academy Grad compatriot in  arms, took 23 years to make MGen. and then took 5 years to get his third star. What slouches those grads are!  Baylor ROTC! That's the way to go.  

Those two worked together as well as actual brothers, and never competed against each other. The mutual respect, support and and common focus was a inspiration that taught a young captain some things about being a part of a band of brothers, that remains to this day.
RIP Gen A. "ROTC" Texan, RF-4C pilot in Thailand, "unarmed, alone and unafraid," in times over places where there was reason to be afraid. ROTC makes some good men too.

TV 

[Timotheus Verinus]

TV, I also can only speak of the instances I'm familiar with, and they're very different from yours. But I don't want to address specific situations negatively. I was an enlisted grunt, but we did have some West Point cadets help out with basic training and just going by the way they were treated and the way they carried themselves I very much doubt they were in danger of graduating with a big debt and no job. And that is another thing about the M. Div.it is

I slept in a room with such a grad as the ones you speak of. He died shortly after we graduated, over SE Asia. Some of those West Point guys did too. But no they didn't have big debts, and no jobs.

I agree on two things completely. The current MDiv debt situation is unsustainable and a shame to us all. But I also know that those who go SMP, many of them gave/ give to the Seminaries. Think about it. They are the faithful givers in your pews. That's what they do. It would be worse without them.

Secondly, the times are hard. Whether they tell us or not, we all have folks in our pews every Sunday jobless, and in huge debt. I met with one 7 hours ago, and she didn't speak of that at all. We talked about what the church could do for others. And against my protest she will put her tithe in the plate on Sunday, the little that it is. May God encourage her brothers and sisters who know nothing of it, to hold her in their care.

Like the two men I spoke of above. They were the same, brothers in a common journey. May God raise us up to that level as brothers in common service. I still listen and place names on call lists. The rest I must leave in God's hands. I know of calls. They are just aren't the "good" ones. But the SMP served church not far from here, went from 35 and ready to close to over 90 present every Sunday in just a few years. That one will now call a sem grad, that would never have been called. That's the best we can do on our end.

TV

[Timotheus Verinus]

.... But I still don't see in any concrete way how the convention failed your friend. What, specifically, was he hoping for in terms of encouragement? What did he find discouraging? How is his experience a valid rebuke of the synod in convention and what should have been different? All you've said so far is that nobody approached him at the sem booth.

I want to try and answer this, but it will be conjecture. Well informed conjecture but conjecture none the less. The factual witness was "not very encouraging."

The speculation. I didn't realize how heavy these things set on my shoulders until it was lifted, and I am as carefree as they come. Whether I live or die it is of no consequence.

Hoping for? Pockets of conversation of the joy of ministry. I always say to those who try and recruit young men to ministry-, that that happens when they watch you and you don't know it, and see you smile as you go about your own ministry. There is nothing you can say that will offset that simple reality as a pastor. Worth remembering as we work. They will not be deceived by words.

What did he find and see? Probably tensions. Those don't hide well. Pauses in measured conversations. Conversations that go silent or change subjects when others pass by.

Why I would find it convicting to me? This is an opportunity of great things. Sharing with others how we and they are dealing with the challenges of life. Surely I would have been caught doing something along those lines while he listened.

What should have been different? I wasn't there. I don't know that level of specific. I can tell you what is different when I experience different convention spirits. Joy and excitement at telling of blessings other than prepared videos. The witness at the bar of something that happened that touched one.

The best I can say that might make sense for you. Dump the high class video productions. Get a missionary like Scott Y when he came back from Africa, to step away from the podium and slide show, and let him tell a story of no consequence, that probably means nothing in the big scheme of things, but it just shows you that God is still there working in our midst. True passion and joy does not hide under a bushel. It can't! It runs off the stage like a liquid. ... and smile, since God is there in any case.

My answers are conjecture. but reasonably well informed.

TV

[peter_speckhard]

TV, point well taken. I wasn't getting what you were talking about before. I'm sure it is a matter of expectations to a large degree. Unfortunately, conventions tend to be for the synod what contentious council meetings are to congregational life-- not a big part of it, but not the best part of it either. I suppose if anyone overheard Paul and Barnabas discussing the conditions on which Mark could come with them would have been discouraged, too.

Another perspective is who is in need of comfort. If one has a good friend who is on CRM and thinks about what he would find comforting as he ponders giving up the ministry altogether and feels abandoned by his church, well, some firmness, some resolution, some genuine calling out of the people trying to sweep him under the rug is in fact comforting to him and let's him know he is not forgotten. But that very resolute lifting up of the rug probably sounds angry and unevangelical to someone who doesn't have that issue in mind but is simply looking for evidence of joy in ministry. So I think to are right to point out that everyone needs to be aware of the various perspectives out there, in their side conversations even, but people who are unconnected to those conversations should realize that anger, disagreement, and some other negative things are also evidence of passion for ministry and the Lord's Church and love for the brethren.

You're right about the good stories being powerful and the genuine better than the slick. I thought we were done with slick videos, but alas. I think they need them for logistical reasons; something to fill the few minutes of dead time and between things and something that can be counted on not to go on and on beyond the allotted time. There are a lot of pastors there after all. But even the participants in the closed chat rooms dedicated to snarky, peanut gallery jokes about the convention stepped away from all that to express how humbled and excited they were to be in mission with people like the African bishop who did one of the essays and talked about the courage it required to confess boldly in the face of persecution. Harrison wanted this to be an outward, international and works of mercy focused convention, I think to some degree he got that. But polity remains the Achilles heel of the synod, and it is almost impossible to exude joy while disagreeing over matters of polity.

And in defense of the synod in convention, I would just two things. First, I think there was a lot genuine joy and energy for mission and ministry, and equally from people who aren't always on the same page. Harrison exudes it. Dave Benke exudes it. I talked briefly to both of them and also with other people about them, and whether you agree everything they do or not, you can't deny that life in God's Church animates and energizes them. Will Weedon, Kim Schave, (to throw a few familiar names in) and seemingly most of the people I talked to were practically glowing, but, and this is key, only on certain topics. Few people manage to be excited about everything, and conventions have to cover the things that irritate and bore them, too, since those topics are different for everybody.

Secondly, what are most people there for? What can you do at convention that you can't do at home? Well, settle disputes, for one. Meet old friends. Take a vacation from parish life and commiserate. None of those things are likely to look edifying to someone on the outside looking in, but all of those things are necessary. So while your friend's discouragement is a salutary reminder that people are watching from very different perspectives, I think he should also be aware some of the stuff he didn't find edifying might have been edifying to someone who had very different needs.

[Timotheus Verinus]

Thank you Peter, all good points,

So we return to the question of substantive responses. In the military, the call and vocation of the moment are the same for every officer, whatever his journey to get there. The unit seeks to raise up and build each man to his potential. They depend on one another to do that. Especially in combat. (I'll defer Vietnam experiences and Carter years discussions on breakdown of discipline).

A lieutenant is a lieutenant is a lieutenant, even if he just got spot promoted one hour ago when the platoon leader fell, and he's still wearing stripes. Everyone calls him Lt. It can be no other way. The entire platoon will perish, the company, the army, if it is not so. This is also true of the pastoral office. It's why LCMS has the theology on office that it does. Its why scripture shows it this way. It is truth.

Can there be different administrative management of the officer corps. You bet. There are reserve commissions, and regular commissions. Temporary promotions and permanent promotions. Military Personnel Center (MPC) managed assignments, and phone calls in the middle of the day, that say "I'm calling you into KI. Sawyer, but don't be concerned, I will be assigned to Europe soon, and you'll come with me there." ( Do what??)

Now three year rotations are not the theology of the call that we toil under. But we can have administrative mechanisms. AS LONG AS someone goes to the work in the field. It is unacceptable to arrange a system that leaves the platoon without a Lt. It is unacceptable to leave a platoon, "let them be without a pastor for a year or two, it will be good for them" Arrgh! are you kidding!? Where in scripture does it say, "Let them go without a shepherd for a while?" Send Titus! and pray for his soul as he walks through the valley of death.

I truly do not know any SMP type who has any problem with various administrative differences. What they are passionate about is that the Church MUST send someone. They are looking at sheep, specific sheep, wandering all over the hill side, scattered every where. If the system doesn't send a shepherd they are very likely to go out and round up the sheep and fight off wolves, and deal with the fallout later.

A word or two on CRM, and that issue. That is a part of my come and see, call. There is a former pastor of a pretty good LCMS congregation in RMD, that is pastored by one who went off call, left the ministry and went to work at a computer company for a decade. He was encouraged back to the call list, put on call lists, and called. He has been there for five years? or so.

I make no apology for spending hours just talking with that computer programmer, years ago saying, go colloquize again. It's how it is done. I will not use names, but we have in The AALC those who were out of calls for a while, and restored in care and love. I make no apology for having discussions over coffee on paths of restoration, and reconciliation with those like that. It's how it is done.

I also have found myself with people in congregations, who have no pastor, and have just suffered a train wreck. They have been put on "just go without a pastor for a few years" probation. I don't usurp the office in that place, but I will walk with them as they work towards future paths and reconciliation. I make no apologies for that. It's how it is done. I'll have coffee with the intentional interim encouraging him. I make no apologies for that. It's how it is done.

Convention resolutions are empty words in the wind, and when the day is done, however they might have encouraged for a moment, and they leave the uncalled CRM, and empty congregation more discouraged than ever. You roll up your sleeves and let God get to work. It's how it is done.

The two are connected. SMP types will always test the resolution of the week, with a simple question. "So can I go feed those sheep, then? Here I am, send me." The CRM is not much different. If the answer is "no," then the questions of discouragement arise, "then who will you send?" If the answer is "no one." then the anger of passion emerges.

The military headquarters' first question to the commander in the field is, "what resources do you need? What do we need to do to equip you? What can we do to help?" Forgive me for being somewhat shocked that I didn't hear those words from LCMS HQ - ever in 25 years. Many still don't. (Thank God, I did hear it from her simple pastors) I was trained in a different culture, one with mission focus, anchored in the integrity of truth.

Now a qualifier before the next part. In The AALC there were ugly battles in the '90's, and the upcoming convention, or the next, may be a time of anxious transition (term limits and all) Yes there can be ugly battles of passionate differences when churches gather to do the business of the church. But that said.

I do not worry about those things, and look forward with anticipation to our gathering next year. The first question that The AALC ministerium asked me was, "What can we do to help?" The first convention I went to there was not like the struggles I had seen in LCMS, and the business still got done.

And I may invite the young man to come next year, with confidence in the ministerium of people with different opinions, that he might see something different. I did. Might a brawl break out? Well yes I guess it could, but I trust in God, and the hearts of those I have seen, that the foundations they constructed in the ashes of the '90s, will serve them well. And I will pray, not with dread, but confidently for God's protection against such things.

And God willing I will always sit down at Starbucks and share a coffee with CRM, or bishop, lay or clergy, wounded or overwhelmed with joy, with any who come and see, both the blessings and ruins of disaster, equally a part of the picture.

It's how it is done.

MHO
TV

[John_Hannah]

I will note this about the comparison of the pastor to the Army officer as concerns their formation and education. In many ways the comparison is apt. What Clyde says about recognition of the officer is absolute. Once commissioned, the source of commissioning makes no difference whatsoever. I will also point out that there are numerous four star generals who did not attend West  Point. My favorite four star (now deceased) was John Shalikashvili. Chairman of the JCS, 1993-97. He was commissioned from Officer Candidate School as an enlisted draftee. At one time in recent decades I think there were more four stars without West Point than with it.

Peace, JOHN

[Timotheus Verinus]

Thanks John,

Let's look at the administration of these things.

First: Grads do get Regular commissions right out of the blocks. (* see note below) A regular commission is treated in some cases differently, preferentially than a reserve commission. ROTC officers covet a regular commission. But

As long as they are active duty, a lieutenant is a lieutenant is a lieutenant, in the place they are called. And Reserve Officers do NOT have to go to West Point, and earn Academy approval to get their regular commission. That is done in the field as careers unfold, and sometimes almost whimsically if you got to watch the sausage being made behind the curtains.

To make General, there are some schools you should attend. Squadron Officer School, Command and Staff etc. etc. but that is not absolute either. It is not in the official "requirements rules" handbook of fairness.

Promotion is done based on need, and performance (developed or natural gifts), those lines go up and down like a sine wave according to the history of the times, war or peace, buildup or downsizing. There is no official Congressional Law of Sine Waves to be tested at convention. It works naturally, according to need and gifts.

But most importantly to these questions of human arrangement is that with the Office of Pastor, God has a hand in the Card Game. You can stay in with two pair, when God holds a royal flush, but you might want to think about it when He smiles and says, just fold, I have this hand. And you don't have to have a rule of folding to do that. It depends on the hand, the ones at table and the gracious will of the dealer. Hand after hand.

TV

Note: On review I notice that all officers grad or ROTC now start with Reserve, and are considered for Regular if active duty going to Major. (or according to MAA 2005 active duty?) An administrative decision none the less, and certainly to the questions we are asking, the old way was allowed and functional.

[John_Hannah]

In the Army--- (at least until 1993 when I retired after 30 years total [reserve, guard, & active])

Some ROTC were always given a regular commission.

Since about 1980 all who were promoted to major were given a regular commission. (I remember because it occurred just as I had completed all the extensive paper work applying for a regular commission and was approved.)

So the analogies apply in a better way with the Army.

Peace, JOHN

[Timotheus Verinus]

Thanks John,

The point I bring in reviewing this is for over 5,000 years it has been shown that an organization can function well based solely on -

Point 1. Mission focus anchored in integrity and truth
Point 2. A pastor is a pastor is a pastor ...
Point 3. You can use a multitude of administrative methods against the first two prinicples, without compromising those principles.

AND FINALLY THE MAIN POINT
In all of this, students who already have full ride scholarships to Yale, and Harvard, Stanford and UCLA, anxiously line up in numbers approaching 10,000, praying they get one of the 1000 slots for the next class. The Academies do not DIE because of OCS six week wonders.

They prosper and continue in demand beyond their ability to respond, because they excel at what they do without trying to trash OCS. They actively support and help OCS, even with teachers, and curriculum. The best of the best teachers (was #1 among all universities in the US in one survey a year ago) do not seek to control the officer corps. They TEACH!!! They make the officer corps that way.

TV

[Timotheus Verinus]

So
Argument One: Greek etc etc. Answered substantively without rebuttal. But I wait, have waited for fifteen plus years for that rebuttal... silence.

Argument Two Substantive issue. What percentage of the pastors will be highly degree'd in residence seminary graduates, and what percentage will be alternate tracks like SMP distance ed?
Answered substantively without rebuttal for fifteen plus years. I still wait to discuss the rebuttal when and where it shows itself.

I will move on to objection three in a bit.

A note: "Well, yeah .. but ... wait and see what happens .... " is not a rebuttal of substance. And since God gets a hand in the card game looks foolish in the end.

I will pause for "substantive" discussion of the above. I still have boxes stacked on boxes from 15 years ago we haven't opened yet, and we haven't yet pulled out the Walther library ... yet again .... even though I no longer am tied to "Waltherianism." I just like the guy's thoughts, and what he wrote. I have those in a box somewhere. This is not new stuff ...

substantively. (and trying very hard to hold down the passion   )

TV

[scott8]

The point I bring in reviewing this is for over 5,000 years...

Please forgive the interruption, but you keep referring to 5,000 years, and I'm lost as to the reference.  Could you clarify that to which you're referring?

[Timotheus Verinus]

The point I bring in reviewing this is for over 5,000 years...

Please forgive the interruption, but you keep referring to 5,000 years, and I'm lost as to the reference.  Could you clarify that to which you're referring?

over 5,000 years = the recorded history of military organizations and how they functioned. Sorry, this conversation is so old I get trapped in assuming... things I should not assume,

For the record rather than trying to discuss and argue Heiroglyphs we can just work with writings 2,500- 3000 years old to stay on topic.

The point of the reference is actually a side debate we sometimes have that "seminary" equals the experiment. and not "practical hands on mentored apprenticeship." That has to go back to AD 1300's and be worked through those transitions.


TV

[Timotheus Verinus]

Scott and others,

As I ready mind and heart for the Sabbath, I remind myself that this is not my problem any more. I will try and simply stick to challenging rash and unsubstantiated assertions, long ago dispelled.

If you want the boxes and boxes of studies and source material, my history is working for ?>10 years?, with Dr. John Schuelke, former 27 year Chief Administrative Officer of the Synod, and Board Member for Human Care Ministries when President Harrison was made its executive director. He has a garage full of source answers to every theological, practical and historical workup that was done over the decades. The replies to young laymen, and to synod Doctors of the Church. He has the Luther and Walther quotes and histories that we used. He has the dispelled assertion papers that ended the use of those positions. He has the minutes of his meetings with sem professors and synod personnel.

That material I was blessed to have available to me over the years, so I could stand on others' shoulders, as I spoke here and elsewhere. (Yes, including conversations in the hallways of the purple palace over 30 years. I bit my tongue more than once, at some statements posted.)

A small token of that material I researched and help prepare. But in every case, it is all documented, and never rebutted by other than unsubstantiated personal feelings. The closest I ever got to a substantive reply was something like, "Well yes it plainly says that but that's not what Walther meant to say." The followup was not convincing.

John and Noreta are retired now enjoying grandkids a few blocks from the home where my wife and I take our weekend breaks when we need to escape from the Denver urban culture shock. He may say its not his problem any more as well. But he is at least still LCMS, and I am not. If you send him a letter with a specific question, he might reply, if he discerns that you care to continue the discussion in earnest. He also published a collection LCMS Chief Administrative Officer Records ('72 thru 1998) as well, which I believe you can get from CHI? None of this is undocumented, opinion. It is fully referenced to primary sources, some of those first person witnesses.

I have avoided pointing this out in the past, because I had no problem just being a voice. But it really isn't my place any more to rehash this LCMS stuff. I'll try and stick to challenging blatant falsities and baseless assertions. The first baseless assertion is that this has not been exhaustively looked at historically and theologically by the most qualified of individuals in the synod, and that it was "sprung on" people by surprise. All this noise in my opinion is a pass through to see if enough who have the resources and know them, have retired, or gone elsewhere, so that maybe no one will challenge them "this time," That's one of the frustrations you hear from folks like J&S.
"Doesn't any one read what was written?!!!!"

Anyway I am not LCMS, and it is not my place to rehash. I reserve the right to shout "Bovine Deposits!" to uninformed assertions. If I do, I'll try and respond with substantive reasons for the exclamation and leave it at that. I'll join threads that address the general questions for all our churches on this subject, but I think I need to bow out of the LCMS Convention thread as a main participant. As always if you come and see, I will buy your coffee at the very least. If John is home and you knew him, we might drop by his house.

TV

[peter_speckhard]

TV, thanks for continuing the discussion. I left yesterday for the Northwoods and can only follow on my phone. I'll be more or less absent from the discussion until Saturday but I didn't want you to wonder why I wasn't replying. Thanks again.