Author Topic: Tweet Years Off Purgatory  (Read 1270 times)



Charles_Austin

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 03:56:56 AM »
Let us not be so fast to pick up ancient swords to hack away.
Fr. Martin's explanation will not satisfy many of those for whom the word, "indulgence," stokes the fire in the belly, is a call to arms, or at least evokes an "OMG, there they go again!" of a "Thank God we don't believe that nonsense!" 
Read the CNN post linked above from Fr. James Martin, S.J.
I like what he says, and agree that this is another of those times when the secular media gets nuanced matters of religion seriously upgescrewed. And I'll bet good religion writers around the country - and there are many - are writing columns like to clarify.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 04:45:58 AM by Charles_Austin »

Mel Harris

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 04:32:26 AM »
The lamentations have begun.

Charles,

       You may want to delete your post above, since most of it is quoting a blog post that cssml provided a link to in his post just above yours.

              Mel
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 04:40:14 AM by Mel Harris »

David Garner

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 07:37:29 AM »
Father Martin's story is an accurate and worthy critique of the media's absolute lack of care when reporting on religion.  Unfortunately, this part:

"Letís leave aside the very complicated theology of the plenary indulgence for a moment, and see how this story got out of hand."

is unlikely to assuage Lutherans, who are concerned precisely with the very complicated theology of the plenary indulgence.  So while I think this article is awesome for a lot of reasons, I don't see it as a response to the concerns in this thread, because Father Martin did not leave that complicated theology aside for a moment, he simply set it aside for the entirety of the article.

FWIW.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Team Hesse

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 08:30:40 AM »
The Lutheran substance of the complaint against the practice of indulgence remains unaddressed. Nothing has changed in the ensuing 500 years, or so it seems. At least on this matter.


Lou

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 09:01:04 AM »
The Lutheran substance of the complaint against the practice of indulgence remains unaddressed. Nothing has changed in the ensuing 500 years, or so it seems. At least on this matter.


Lou

LOU

In fairness, I think very much has changed. It is no longer possible to buy them. The entire enterprise has shrunk so as to not be noticeable. I happen to know many Roman Catholic people from the Army and from here in New York City. Not a single one seems to care about indulgences; I doubt that they even know about them.

It is very different than 500 years ago.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 09:34:42 AM »
Mr. Garner writes:
Father Martin's story is an accurate and worthy critique of the media's absolute lack of care when reporting on religion.

I comment:
Well, that word "absolute" isn't right.
   There are many fine religion reporters scattered around the country. (Not so many as there once were, it is one of the first beats to go when there is a cutback.)
   And when some people get their hands on a religion story, their ignorance or ineptitude rises to the surface faster than a tennis ball carried down 30 feat into the ocean by an over-eager setter who lets it go so he can chase it to the surface even though he always loses the race.
   It's not just religion. When reporters without proper knowledge handle certain stories about science, or medicine or care of your crazed elderly aunt, I suspect that some nuance is lost and serious error might seep in.
   Fr. Martin's clarification helps a lot; but you almost have to have a Jesuit's knowledge of the subject to make it clear as he did.
   Had the "tweet out of purgatory" thing been handed to me; I would have been on the phone to a couple of Jesuits or a Vaticanista like Tom Reese (also S.J.) to see what they had to say before I wrote anything.


Dan Fienen

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 09:43:05 AM »
The Roman Catholic Church has changed a great deal since the 16th Century.  Much of the corruption has been cleaned up, theology has been strengthened and some of the worst abuses have been corrected.  The church still has problems.  That is inevitable when one has a large human organization.  There will always be those who go astray, those who take advantage of situations and those who misjudge the best way to deal with messes. 
 
However, even though the purgatory/indulgences system has become much less of money making racket than it was in Luther's day it still is at best a distortion of the Gospel.
 
Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Team Hesse

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 09:46:25 AM »
The Lutheran substance of the complaint against the practice of indulgence remains unaddressed. Nothing has changed in the ensuing 500 years, or so it seems. At least on this matter.


Lou

LOU

In fairness, I think very much has changed. It is no longer possible to buy them. The entire enterprise has shrunk so as to not be noticeable. I happen to know many Roman Catholic people from the Army and from here in New York City. Not a single one seems to care about indulgences; I doubt that they even know about them.

It is very different than 500 years ago.

Peace, JOHN


The Lutheran substance of the complaint remains unaddressed.


Lou

David Garner

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 10:07:50 AM »
Mr. Garner writes:
Father Martin's story is an accurate and worthy critique of the media's absolute lack of care when reporting on religion.

I comment:
Well, that word "absolute" isn't right.
   There are many fine religion reporters scattered around the country. (Not so many as there once were, it is one of the first beats to go when there is a cutback.)
   And when some people get their hands on a religion story, their ignorance or ineptitude rises to the surface faster than a tennis ball carried down 30 feat into the ocean by an over-eager setter who lets it go so he can chase it to the surface even though he always loses the race.
   It's not just religion. When reporters without proper knowledge handle certain stories about science, or medicine or care of your crazed elderly aunt, I suspect that some nuance is lost and serious error might seep in.
   Fr. Martin's clarification helps a lot; but you almost have to have a Jesuit's knowledge of the subject to make it clear as he did.
   Had the "tweet out of purgatory" thing been handed to me; I would have been on the phone to a couple of Jesuits or a Vaticanista like Tom Reese (also S.J.) to see what they had to say before I wrote anything.

Fair enough -- hyperbole on my part.  I still think, in the main, the press is lazy about reporting on religion.  I agree there are exceptions to the rule.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

cssml

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2013, 12:23:22 PM »
The Lutheran substance of the complaint against the practice of indulgence remains unaddressed. Nothing has changed in the ensuing 500 years, or so it seems. At least on this matter.


Lou

LOU

In fairness, I think very much has changed. It is no longer possible to buy them. The entire enterprise has shrunk so as to not be noticeable. I happen to know many Roman Catholic people from the Army and from here in New York City. Not a single one seems to care about indulgences; I doubt that they even know about them.

It is very different than 500 years ago.

Peace, JOHN

Thank you, John.  As a Catholic (convert), I have never met or heard any Catholic priest, lay, or apologist who does not acknowledge that the practice of indulgences was gravely abused in the16th century.  When practices are abused, they need to be reformed, not discarded.  Thanks be to God that reforms of the practice were accomplished without rejecting something that the Church understands God has entrusted to it for the benefit of His children.   Some people abuse baptism by using functional non-trinitarian forms (Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier).  Some people abuse the institution of marriage by attempting the enter into it by persons of the same gender, or by utterly failing to love and serve the person they entered into it with. 

We do not discard marriage and baptism.

Likewise, many Lutheran/Methodist/Orthodox/Catholic/Anglican pastors/priests abuse the office entrusted to them.  We do not discard the office.

I don't know if this will be helpful to the conversation, but the Catholic understanding of indulgences is covered in the following section of the Catechism.  I suspect there remains language here that will cause some Lutheran's skin to crawl, but I offer it so folks can at least read and know what the Church actually teaches.

  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1471

I would also add (and I am not sure this is a good thing or not), that the idea of 'gaining indulgences' is an idea that is almost completely absent in the minds and lives of almost every Catholic I have met.  Again, I am not sure this is a good thing, but it is what it is.  Maybe we have gone too far, from the fear-of-hell-and-purchasing-indulgences abuses of the 16th century to a rejection of a treasure of the Church by the faithful through ignorance, fear of being 'too Catholic' and offending others, lack of any fear hell and punishment for our sins, or pure and simple apathy.

And another Catholic take on the story:

  http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/indulgences-not-a-magical-formula-canon-lawyer-explains/
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 12:25:25 PM by cssml »

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Tweet Years Off Purgatory
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 01:43:25 PM »
I find it rather bracing to conclude from the teaching of purgatory that one can't simply sin in space and time and think one can get away with it "cheaply" by claiming a justification by grace through faith.

Purgatory gives one the chance to "make up" for the infinitely broken repercussions of one's mortal acts in the face of the infinitely healing divine judgement and forgiveness.

The "fire" of purgatory seems to be less a torturous flame and more of a cleansing fire of God's love as we stand in His light. Then, purified, we are admitted to our heavenly reward won through the merits of Christ alone.

Peter (No whining) Garrison
Pete Garrison