Author Topic: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"  (Read 6809 times)

Steverem

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LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« on: July 09, 2013, 11:07:39 AM »
An interesting interview with the Rt. Rev. Ray Sutton, Ecumenical Officer for the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA).  A couple highlights:

On ACNA's workings with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod:

Quote

I am very encouraged by our Lutheran brothers and sisters in two different jurisdictions who’ve become very, very strong Christian friends with the Anglican Church in North America and the Reformed Episcopal Church. We have experienced nothing but true Christian charity and real cooperation around the essentials of the faith. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod has been so kind. I’ve been time and again moved by how they have been willing to talk with Biblical Anglicans. They’ve not been known in the past for a lot of ecumenical activity, and mainly worked within some fairly narrow constraints of Lutheranism, but we have seen proper Biblical breadth in their dealings with us. They, along with all of us, recognize that at this point in history, the Christians that believe in the Bible and the historic catholic creeds, and in their case are coheirs of the Reformation, need to stand together as much as we can.


On the changing nature of ecumenism:

Quote

The ecumenism of liberalism became what I call the quest to create a kind of Huxley-ian, “Brave New Church,” a one-world liberal church supporting some kind of one-world geo-political ideology. And for that reason a lot of conservatives have been reluctant to talk about ecumenical efforts. I understand this. But it’s a new day for ecumenism among conservatives.  We’ve seen conservative breakaway groups among Lutherans, Presbyterians, and now Anglicans. Similar though not as developed efforts have even occurred among the Baptists, and the Methodists. Now all of these restored Biblical and conservative Christians in various branches of the Lord’s Church are starting to talk to each other. Their desire is not geo-political but Gospel.


http://juicyecumenism.com/2013/07/09/ird-exclusive-bishop-sutton-on-the-acna-and-lutheranism/

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 01:20:06 PM »
I cannot find anything in Rt. Rev. Sutton's remarks to disagree with.  I read of the meetings that take place between the LCMS, the NALC, the ACNA and the LCC with great interest and am proud of my church body for their willingness to take part in these conversations and explore how these church body's can make a solid, faithful, and good confession of Jesus Christ to the neighborhoods and communities where we are located.

Within my congregation's worshiping community is a family that are members of the Reformed Episcopal Church, yet they are not close to an REC congregation.  He is friendly with Rt. Rev. Sutton and is also encouraged by the meetings that are taking place among these church bodies.

Thanks for sharing the link and the highlights.

Jeremy
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Robert_C_Baker

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 02:38:36 PM »
This is an interesting comment: "Yes, we have differences about polity and certain aspects of the faith, but there’s no question that we agree on the Gospel and the Catholic creeds. Importantly, I think what’s developing is a confessional movement. And when I say confession, it’s a movement based in the ancient creeds of the faith. In these commitments, Christians can come together for the spread of the Gospel."

One reads similar comments coming from the NALC.

Questions: Do we agree on the Gospel? Do we agree on the Creeds? Is this a "confessional" movement? If our ecumenical partners believe "yes" to each of these questions, I trust that our LCMS folks will be handing each of the participants a copy of the Book of Concord.

LCMS87

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 03:07:03 PM »
He just said "the Gospel," not "the Gospel in all its articles."  ;D

I perceive the primary difference he's highlighting to be a cooperation or working together to the extent that's possible within each participants confessional commitments rather than setting up an expectation of all or nothing--either full altar and pulpit fellowship or no relationship at all. 

Time will tell what this means, but I appreciate that there's a willingness to discuss and be supportive of one another without pressing toward fellowship based on "reconciled diversity."   I think it's in this respect, contrasting it to that common approach, that this is being described as a "confessional" movement.  The goal isn't a "Brave New Church."

Mike in Pennsylvania

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 03:28:15 PM »
From an NALC perspective, I think that's exactly right.  I can't see there being any kind of merger among ACNA, LCMS, and NALC any time in the foreseeable future, yet we also recognize each other as sharing more in common than we do with ELCA, TEC, or other liberal groups.  In that way, it is useful to get to know one another, to be good neighbors, as it were, and to work together in ways that do not conflict with our individual confessional commitments.
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Terry W Culler

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2013, 03:41:30 PM »
Who knows, maybe liberalism will turn out to be the greatest force for Christian unity in centuries--just not in the way they imagined it.
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Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 05:20:52 PM »
He just said "the Gospel," not "the Gospel in all its articles."  ;D

I perceive the primary difference he's highlighting to be a cooperation or working together to the extent that's possible within each participants confessional commitments rather than setting up an expectation of all or nothing--either full altar and pulpit fellowship or no relationship at all. 

Time will tell what this means, but I appreciate that there's a willingness to discuss and be supportive of one another without pressing toward fellowship based on "reconciled diversity."   I think it's in this respect, contrasting it to that common approach, that this is being described as a "confessional" movement.  The goal isn't a "Brave New Church."

As always, the distinction between cooperation in externals and communion in sacred things is crucial.

The LCMS as well as every member of its congregations examines and refines that distinction daily.

Mike

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 05:51:49 PM »
If our ecumenical partners believe "yes" to each of these questions, I trust that our LCMS folks will be handing each of the participants a copy of the Book of Concord.

Several of those Anglican participants have had copies of the Concordia for a very long time.  They've read them, too.

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Pilgrim

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 06:11:29 PM »
The LCMS as well as every member of its congregations examines and refines that distinction daily.

Mike

Tim simply notes: As respectfully as I can, I highly doubt such a utopian world exists, ever has or ever will, even in the LCMS.
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Charles_Austin

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2013, 10:09:30 PM »
I've always found it interesting/amusing that certain types of church folk who - up to now - wanted absolutely nothing to do with each other, now get all cuddly and cozy with one another solely because they all oppose gay marriage or gay clergy.

Dan Fienen

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 10:25:19 PM »
I've always found it interesting/amusing that certain types of church folk who - up to now - wanted absolutely nothing to do with each other, now get all cuddly and cozy with one another solely because they all oppose gay marriage or gay clergy.

ba-dum ching (rimshot)
 
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Charles_Austin

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2013, 10:32:43 PM »
Pastor Fienen, a rimshot, is a single sound, one syllable, the drumstick flat against the face of the drum and hitting the rim at the same time - hence "rim"shot.
There is no way a rimshot could be a three-syllable ba-dum ching
Maybe you are trying to appropriate the common "badabing!" (sometimes "badaboom! badabing!"), which serves another purpose of emphasis and emotion, but generally in a positive sense. e.g. "Lucy and I were on the boardwalk and I won her a big stuffed panda at the ring toss and - badabing! - you know what was going to happen next!"
ba-dum ching is not in my lexicon of slang noises.  ;D

Dan Fienen

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2013, 10:58:43 PM »
Sorry, done in again by Wikipedia
 
Quote

A sting, often referred to as a rimshot, is a short sequence played by a drummer to punctuate a joke, especially an obvious one. A sting is often used as accompaniment during cabaret- and circus-style shows. The sound of the sting is sometimes written ba dum tsh, ba-dum ching, and occasionally ba dum tis. An abbreviation used in chats is //* .
 
Stings may take the form of a short roll followed by crash cymbal and kick drum, a flam, or a rimshot
.
 
What is the slang sound for cheap shot?
 
 
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Jeremy Loesch

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 11:20:32 PM »
Charles- the joke is that you think these biblical churches are cozy solely because of homosexuality.  Stop making it about sex and start realizing it's about making a clear and loving confession of Jesus Christ.

Jeremy
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peter_speckhard

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Re: LC-MS, ACNA, and "Brave New Church"
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 12:11:37 AM »
Plus, we always have a certain degree of coziness with any church, complicated by reasons for keeping our distance. When those churches split, they often split along those same lines. The reasons for keeping distance remain in one body and the reasons for coziness remain in another body. Naturally, then, when another church body splits along those lines we become more cozy with the one body than we were previously and less cozy with the other than we were previously.