Author Topic: Home to Rome?  (Read 3636 times)

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2013, 01:37:06 AM »
In June and July of 2003, I took my bride of one year to Rome as our belated honeymoon to take the course "Ecumenical Theology from a Roman Catholic Perspective".  I highly recommend the course to my brother and sister Pastors.  The course is sponsored by the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement, based in New York with the Centro Pro Unione in Rome.  There are so many compelling reasons for a Lutheran Pastor to take this class, and it is obscenely inexpensive!

Throughout the course, I kept hearing the same refrain: Roman Ecumenically emphatically states that it is NOT about "coming home".  I challenged the faculty and presenters with their seeming contradiction:  100% agreement is not necessary for a variety of  ecumenical possibilities, but the non-negotiable are the Papacy and the necessity of fellowship with him to be necessary for a licit Eucharist.

The examples given to us of reunion without merger are the early monophysite Churches that have issues with Christology but are reconciled or overlooked for the sake of unity.

In spite of my best efforts, we could not come up with a model for Lutheran reunion while remaining Lutheran.  My participation in the Course was prior to the Personal Prelature, which is an ingenious approach which has great potential for individual Lutheran priests who wish to become Roman for whatever reason.  This approach is not practical for a "group fellowship" model that makes it more than just the personal.

My discussions in Lutheranism sounds to me like what I hear from the Orthodox, who are more of a diverse group than Lutherans could ever hope to be.

I have officially withdrawn myself from conscious attempts at prompting reunion with Rome.  I came from Rome, became Lutheran at age 21 and long ago celebrated the anniversary of becoming Lutheran longer than I was Roman Catholic.  I have a deep and lasting love and honor for the Roman Catholic Church for my formation and for the safety they provided me in a very, very difficult childhood and adolescence.  The Roman Church nurtured me well, including the foreknowledge at age 7 that God was calling me to become a priest.  The pastoral ministry I am privileged to serve in the LCMS allows me to be the reformed Catholic priest I am and enough "cover" to live the piety of a traditional Lutheran Pastor, nurtured and nurturing in the amazing Word of God and the life-sustaining Sacraments.

If there was a grand gesture by Rome to reconcile the Reformation of the 16th Century, I would certainly pay attention and find ways of presenting it as a positive thing to my parishioners, but would not necessarily be the first in line, or maybe even be in the line towards reunification and reconciliation.

This is a huge change in me in the past 20 years, and is a great shock to those who know my heart, even and especially my wife.  What has changed in me is that the only interest I have is that which God initiates and brings about in spite of me and the LCMS!

John_Hannah

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2013, 08:26:31 AM »
PADRE

As usual, very well stated!

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Team Hesse

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2013, 08:27:53 AM »
In June and July of 2003, I took my bride of one year to Rome as our belated honeymoon to take the course "Ecumenical Theology from a Roman Catholic Perspective".  I highly recommend the course to my brother and sister Pastors.  The course is sponsored by the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement, based in New York with the Centro Pro Unione in Rome.  There are so many compelling reasons for a Lutheran Pastor to take this class, and it is obscenely inexpensive!

Throughout the course, I kept hearing the same refrain: Roman Ecumenically emphatically states that it is NOT about "coming home".  I challenged the faculty and presenters with their seeming contradiction:  100% agreement is not necessary for a variety of  ecumenical possibilities, but the non-negotiable are the Papacy and the necessity of fellowship with him to be necessary for a licit Eucharist.

The examples given to us of reunion without merger are the early monophysite Churches that have issues with Christology but are reconciled or overlooked for the sake of unity.

In spite of my best efforts, we could not come up with a model for Lutheran reunion while remaining Lutheran.  My participation in the Course was prior to the Personal Prelature, which is an ingenious approach which has great potential for individual Lutheran priests who wish to become Roman for whatever reason.  This approach is not practical for a "group fellowship" model that makes it more than just the personal.

My discussions in Lutheranism sounds to me like what I hear from the Orthodox, who are more of a diverse group than Lutherans could ever hope to be.

I have officially withdrawn myself from conscious attempts at prompting reunion with Rome.  I came from Rome, became Lutheran at age 21 and long ago celebrated the anniversary of becoming Lutheran longer than I was Roman Catholic.  I have a deep and lasting love and honor for the Roman Catholic Church for my formation and for the safety they provided me in a very, very difficult childhood and adolescence.  The Roman Church nurtured me well, including the foreknowledge at age 7 that God was calling me to become a priest.  The pastoral ministry I am privileged to serve in the LCMS allows me to be the reformed Catholic priest I am and enough "cover" to live the piety of a traditional Lutheran Pastor, nurtured and nurturing in the amazing Word of God and the life-sustaining Sacraments.

If there was a grand gesture by Rome to reconcile the Reformation of the 16th Century, I would certainly pay attention and find ways of presenting it as a positive thing to my parishioners, but would not necessarily be the first in line, or maybe even be in the line towards reunification and reconciliation.

This is a huge change in me in the past 20 years, and is a great shock to those who know my heart, even and especially my wife.  What has changed in me is that the only interest I have is that which God initiates and brings about in spite of me and the LCMS!


Thoughtful, well-considered, and charitably stated.


Lou

Charles_Austin

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 10:55:38 AM »
Padre Dave retains his title as one of the sanest, most thoughtful and truly ecumenical voices present in this small forum.
Even in the things he is wrong about, he is sane and thoughtful.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2013, 11:32:43 AM »
Wow.  There's a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one...  ::)

Matt Staneck

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2013, 12:20:12 PM »
Thanks for that, Padre!  Something I have come to terms with is that of all the "institutions" in the world, the Church is the one institution that does not have to be desperate for X, Y, or Z.  The world is desperate in her attempt to forge agreements and "unity," and whatever else it is she does.  The Church however, while urgent in her appeals and constant in her faith, is not in the business of desperately making this move.  Exegetically, one better believe the Lord desires unity amongst his people, but we know for certain that if we cannot get it done, Jesus will eventually.  More of that freeing sense of being able to go about one's work without having to be desperate.  Work hard, and work towards unity, because we are after all Christian, but removing a desperation equation from the process allows us to engage one another openly and honestly.  There is no timeline, there is no deadline, go talk with that Christian over there because it's your vocation as Christian. 

I'm obviously still working through all of this, but I was again led to this studying Piepkorn.

M. Staneck
Matt Staneck, Pastor
St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church
Queens, NY

Charles_Austin

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2013, 03:12:18 PM »
Dammit! Pastor Cottingham, will you please butt out!? Padre Dave and I have had private exchanges from time to time and he - along with anyone who wouldn't take issue if I said we are in the month of June - knows there is nothing backhanded about my compliment.
You, sir, are out of line. You might consider allowing me to say something without taking a swipe at it. Maybe, shall we say, at least once a week?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 03:15:09 PM by Charles_Austin »

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2013, 04:40:30 PM »
Dammit! Pastor Cottingham, will you please butt out!? Padre Dave and I have had private exchanges from time to time and he - along with anyone who wouldn't take issue if I said we are in the month of June - knows there is nothing backhanded about my compliment.
You, sir, are out of line. You might consider allowing me to say something without taking a swipe at it. Maybe, shall we say, at least once a week?
Thanks, my friend.  Yes folks, the good Pastor Austin and I frequently (though not frequently enough, but that is my issue as I deliberately limit my time here lest my more obvious and obnoxious aspects of my sinful nature become more evident) correspond regarding issues here and elsewhere and we do so in a respectful and honorable fashion.

John_Hannah

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2013, 05:58:40 PM »
Thanks, Padre Dave! I, for one, think that it's time to stop picking on Charles Austin. He is not the antichrist. (Some of you are supposed to believe it's the pope anyway.)


Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

George Erdner

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2013, 06:18:37 PM »
How could anyone possibly interrupt or butt into a private exchange? Private exchanges take place using PRIVATE MESSAGES. Public posts made for all to see are not private. Therefore, since they aren't private, they cannot be "butted into".

ReformedCatholic

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2013, 07:09:04 PM »
Thanks, Padre Dave! I, for one, think that it's time to stop picking on Charles Austin. He is not the antichrist. (Some of you are supposed to believe it's the pope anyway.
Peace, JOHN

I know you John, I respect you and love you as a brother in Christ.........but you are in error.

Padre Dave it is always a blessing and an enlightenment to read your contributions. I have sinned and become like some others who regularly post, in spite of my best efforts not to react. Thanks for reminding me that there are those whose posting are edifying and therefore continued participation in this forum is a good thing.
Blessings
Bob+   who "somehow" "got my ordination"     <sigh>

Coach-Rev

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2013, 07:27:18 PM »
Butting out, even though I agree with George.  And since Charles can cuss, swear, and "butt in" to every other conversation he wishes, apparently without repercussion and opportunity for rebuttal, I'm done here. 

Typical bullying behavior, I simply note:  What he most complains about is the very thing he's guilty of on a frequent basis.

And to Padre Dave, my apologies.  Without knowing what you state, his comment is indeed very backhanded, (when you are "wrong...")   and certainly within his usual character on this forum.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:04:27 AM by Coach-Rev »

Norman Teigen

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2013, 08:30:24 PM »
The moderator recently asked me to stop my Beavis and Butthead jokes and I have complied.  I see in these most recent comments  some Beavis-and-Butthead like messages.  I would urge those so inclined to heed the moderator's advice and desist from juvenilism., as I have now done.
Norman Teigen

LutherMan

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Re: Home to Rome?
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2013, 08:34:47 PM »
What are Beavis and Butthead jokes? 
Bear with me, I generally ignore popular culture...