Author Topic: One Mister Too Many, Portico  (Read 4870 times)

Chuck

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2013, 09:20:05 PM »
Though not certain ... and having overheard conversations in that same vein ... could it be a reference to Dr. Luther's statement that a man should not preach or administer the sacraments unless he is rightfully called.

Not Luther, Melanchthon. AC XIV.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 09:58:22 PM by Chuck »
Chuck Ruthroff

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John_Hannah

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2013, 08:08:43 AM »
JAY

..."unless properly called" (Latin -...nisi rite vocatus) or "...without a proper (public) call" (German -...ohn ordentlichen Beruf refers to the entire process of sustaining the Church's ministry (the initial personal call, the public authorization [ordination], and the local, congregation service, however that is determined). It does not refer to our modern congregational call because the Lutherans did not do that until they came to America. The Roman Catholics approved this article (XIV) of the Augsburg Confession as do I, most certainly.


Peace, JOHN
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 02:43:38 PM by John_Hannah »
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2013, 04:28:08 PM »
Though not certain ... and having overheard conversations in that same vein ... could it be a reference to Dr. Luther's statement that a man should not preach or administer the sacraments unless he is rightfully called.

Not Luther, Melanchthon. AC XIV.

Well, if we're going to be picky about it, it's actually all Lutherans -- brother Phillip, Father Martin, and us.

 ;)
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Russ Saltzman

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2013, 10:50:10 AM »
Had a conversation yesterday with a Presbyterian pastor who have moved from the PCUSA to the EPC. They are so civilized in Presbyterian circles that they actually refer to this as a "transfer" from one church body to another. Different polity, I know, but rather more courteous that the ELCA boilerplate telling NALC pastors they should no longer wear collars or refer to themselves by ecclesiastical titles.

I got one of those letters. I keep it framed next to my ordination certificate.
Russell E Saltzman
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2013, 02:58:24 PM »
except Peter, and I say this with less anger... just cause I am getting too old for some forms of anger and I like some LCMS pastors....  when the LCMS kept those of us who were vested... yes, they kept our money for us but reduced our interest on that money to I believe a 1% figure all the ensuing years... I retired last year and after a 10 year vesting period's money was kept all those years (and they included some big interest times we all recall, I get $100 a month!  There was some punitive action.    I just really hope some poor pastors who never made much at least are enjoying the interest I never enjoyed.  Harvey Mozolak

In this conversation, it should be noted that Portico is continuing to manage the benefit plans for those pastors who have left ELCA.  If my recollection is correct, that was not a courtesy that Concordia Plans extended to LCMS pastors who joined AELC.
A benefit plan benefits by having more members. A self-serving courtesy is no courtesy at all. As for the Concordia Plans in the 70's, anyone who was vested obviously kept their benefits, but I don't think (I could be wrong) Concordia's constitution/charter gave them the option of serving non-LCMS folks. So it wasn't (again, if that is correct) a decision made on the basis of courtesy or discourtesy and it in fact meant the plan taking a hit by losing members, so whether it was a decision or not, it was the opposite of self-serving. In the case of deliberately going out of your way to change "Rev." to "Mr." in addressing a clergyman, it is clearly deliberate, clearly a decision, and clearly discourteous. No comparison whatsoever.
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Charles_Austin

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2013, 06:15:13 PM »
I'm hope my friend Russ Saltzman will agree that, if the ELCA and its poohbahs had someone like him or like this humble correspondent on the staff, people with some knowledge of public image and public relations, we could have found a way to write that letter that would not make the ELCA look silly and the letter-writers vindictive.
The letter, rightfully saying that the recipient may no longer consider themselves a pastor in the ELCA or act as such, is a textbook example of bad writing and corporate ineptitude.
(And people say I do not criticize the ELCA!)

Michael_Rothaar

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2013, 02:39:28 PM »
I'm hope my friend Russ Saltzman will agree that, if the ELCA and its poohbahs had someone like him or like this humble correspondent on the staff, people with some knowledge of public image and public relations, we could have found a way to write that letter that would not make the ELCA look silly and the letter-writers vindictive.
The letter, rightfully saying that the recipient may no longer consider themselves a pastor in the ELCA or act as such, is a textbook example of bad writing and corporate ineptitude.
(And people say I do not criticize the ELCA!)


Nothing all that wrong about the letter. Lowell Almen wrote it more than a decade ago. Trouble is, it's the form letter intended for people who have been removed from the clergy roster for disciplinary reasons. Probably didn't have room on the file label to explain the appropriate use.
Mike Rothaar
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Charles_Austin

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2013, 05:21:15 PM »
That's my point, Pastor Rothaar. The letter was appropriate for those who have been disciplined out of the ELCA ministerium. It was the wrong letter for those leaving to go to another church body, and it was a bit of inept bozo-ness to use it as such.

Mel Harris

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 12:14:55 AM »

That's my point, Pastor Rothaar. The letter was appropriate for those who have been disciplined out of the ELCA ministerium. It was the wrong letter for those leaving to go to another church body, and it was a bit of inept bozo-ness to use it as such.


       The "Draft of letter of notice of removal from roster of ordained ministers–revised version as of August 2010" and the "Draft of letter of notice of resignation from roster of ordained ministers)revised version as of February 2001" are part of the Manual of Policies and Procedures for Management of the Rosters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which downloads from this link.

       As Charles has publicly accused many of the synod bishops of the ELCA (and those at Higgins Road who have been advising them) of "inept bozo-ness", he can probably expect to receive one of those letters soon.      ;)

                Mel Harris  (Whose ELCA bishop did not send him one of those form letters when he resigned from the ELCA Clergy Roster.)

Charles_Austin

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2013, 02:37:23 AM »
Mel Harris writes:
As Charles has publicly accused many of the synod bishops of the ELCA (and those at Higgins Road who have been advising them) of "inept bozo-ness", he can probably expect to receive one of those letters soon.     

I muse:
Folks here can dream, but I have received nothing by letters commendation from my bishop for the past 25 years. I have always admitted the presence of bozos in various synodical and churchwide positions. Sometimes I have even said which particular person wears the red nose and big floppy shoes.

Dave Likeness

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2013, 12:32:21 PM »
Here in the Midwest the term bozo has been replaced
by the word clown.  A clergy clown could be someone
who sits in the ivy tower of denominational headquarters
and has no clue what is happening in the local parish.

Usually these clown clergy could not cut it in a parish and
retreated to the inner walls of security as a pencil pusher
in a  denominational office.  They have no qualms about
addressing clergy as Mister instead of Pastor.

This raises the question " whatever happen to the clergy
discount that many merchants offered in the 1950's?"
As Rodney Dangerfield would say, "Clergy get no respect."

George Erdner

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 01:20:20 PM »
This raises the question " whatever happen to the clergy
discount that many merchants offered in the 1950's?"
As Rodney Dangerfield would say, "Clergy get no respect."


The so-called "clergyman's discount" was well known in retail. It consisted of marking prices up, then offering a special "sale" to reduce them back to normal. It is still often seen on catalogs and websites that include a bogus "actual" price alongside their special discounted price which happens to be the normal, ordinary "street" price almost everyone pays. That's why the MRSP (Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price) of most products is a joke.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2013, 04:31:10 PM »
Here in the Midwest the term bozo has been replaced
by the word clown.  A clergy clown could be someone
who sits in the ivy tower of denominational headquarters
and has no clue what is happening in the local parish.

Usually these clown clergy could not cut it in a parish and
retreated to the inner walls of security as a pencil pusher
in a  denominational office.  They have no qualms about
addressing clergy as Mister instead of Pastor.

This raises the question " whatever happen to the clergy
discount that many merchants offered in the 1950's?"
As Rodney Dangerfield would say, "Clergy get no respect."


With all the clergy sex scandals, clergy lost their respected place in society.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Jay Michael

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Re: One Mister Too Many, Portico
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 10:55:07 PM »
With all the clergy sex scandals, clergy lost their respected place in society.
It happen long before that ... at one time the clergy was one of the most highly educated in the congregation in addition to being recognized as God's representative among us. As the education rose in the congregation that respect dwindled as did the respect given to the office.  Of course, the clergy scandals of any type did not help matters.