Author Topic: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians  (Read 8014 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2013, 08:28:04 AM »
Thank you, Mr. Erdner.

I understand the view of the separation from God being the death of the soul. Augustine wrote of that. If I recall correctly, this was the result, however, of the second death, eternal separation from God, not the first death.

So, are you suggesting, or perhaps I should phrase it as were you taught, that the soul dies at the time of a human death, in that it is separated from God? And if one dies in grace, even though separated from God, God will resurrect the soul?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 08:35:22 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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George Erdner

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2013, 08:53:37 AM »
Thank you, Mr. Erdner.

I understand the view of the separation from God being the death of the soul. Augustine wrote of that. If I recall correctly, this was the result, however, of the second death, eternal separation from God, not the first death.

So, are you suggesting, or perhaps I should phrase it as were you taught, that the soul dies at the time of a human death, in that it is separated from God? And if one dies in grace, even though separated from God, God will resurrect the soul?

Thanks.


That's what I was taught. The important thing was that God's gift of redemption through grace is resurrection into eternal life, not some sort of immortality of the soul. I was also taught that we don't know how much time elapses between death and resurrection, it could be an instant or thousands of years. Or, it might take thousands of years, but in our perception, it will appear to be instantaneous. That was one of those things that we don't know, and we don't need to know. We just know that we'll end up resurrected, with our reborn soul in a restored body, and it will be good. And, to me at least, that knowledge seems sufficient.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2013, 09:12:01 AM »
Thank you, Mr. Erdner.
Don Kirchner

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David Garner

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2013, 10:07:35 AM »
Something that should probably come into play is that in Christ, death has been transformed.  It does not mean the cessation of existence (it never did), nor does it mean annihilation or any such thing.  My dear Lutheran pastor used to say "death is an active state -- dead people do not remain as they were when they were alive, only inanimate.  They stink.  They rot.  They decay."  So the soul (like the matter of the body) remains, but exists differently than it did before.  This is true also for the soul moving away from God's love as opposed to being integrated into it.  The promise of the resurrection is not that the soul endures forever.  That happens whether we are united to Christ or not.  For those outside of Christ, that is a curse instead of a blessing, because they spend eternity in the presence of God, but receiving His presence and even His love as torment.  This is why, for example, we see Isaiah in the Old Testament fall down on his face in fear in the presence of God in His glory.  To the one who is still in sin, God is received as terrifying instead of healing.

The promise in Christ is that our sins are remitted, our corrupted nature is healed, and we are able to be received into God's presence as united with Him, because we are united with His Son, who is of the same essence as the Father.  Thus, it is not that the soul goes to one place or another, or is in one physical state of existence or another, but that the soul, which is to say, the person, perceives God differently when united to Him than when it is separated from Him by sin and self love.

Viewing the Fall in this light, it is much easier to see things as Mr. Erdner does.  For Adam and Eve, the problem was not that they lost immortality in a fleshly sense, but rather that the source of life itself was He Whom they cut themselves off from by their rebellion. 
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2013, 10:10:03 AM »
 ;)
Don Kirchner

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Weedon

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2013, 10:16:03 AM »
But the souls of the righteous are in the hands of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seem to have died, and their departure was thought to be an evil thing, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace...their hope is full of immortality.—Wisdom 3

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2013, 10:39:44 AM »
But the souls of the righteous are in the hands of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seem to have died, and their departure was thought to be an evil thing, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace...their hope is full of immortality.—Wisdom 3

Interesting, but isn't this apocryphal? 

Am I wrong to rely on this as a more substantial proof?

Quote
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26 (ESV)

Mike

LCMS87

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2013, 10:54:27 AM »
How about:  "The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7), or "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8 ), or "Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).  Then there's also this:  "Jesus answered them, . . . 'have you not read what was said to you by God:  "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?  He is not God of the dead, but of the living' ” (Matthew 22:31-32).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 10:59:33 AM by LCMS87 »

Pastor Ted Crandall

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2013, 11:56:37 AM »
I think the difference is that Johan appears to be limiting his confession to just the parts of Scripture that are addressed in the Small Confession.  Anything else in Scripture or the rest of the Confessions he seems to consider open questions...

Really? Example, please.


Peace, JOHN

Well there is this, but it’s not conclusive.  That’s why I said “appears.”  As usual, Johan is as evasive and vague as a Seminex subscriber on the LCMS clergy roster… 

What if what you teach and believe is not mentioned directly in the Catechism, but contradicts another part of our Confessions?  Would you consider that an open question?

My personal confession is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as I learned it from the Small Catechism.

The history of the Church through the centuries is very sordid and, in that history, Lutherans have not been exempt from participation in the sordid.  In sorting through that history, it is a challenge to know the catholic truth distinct from the corrupting influences of the clay vessels who have passed on the truth from one generation to the next.  I believe that the doctrine contained in the Small Catechism comes about as close as we can get to knowing spiritual truth, i.e. the questions for which the Catechism has answers are closed.  I say that acknowledging my Lutheran bias and acknowledging that there is not universal agreement in the Church regarding what Lutherans believe regarding the Sacraments, regarding the place of good works and regarding predestination.

So, I guess the best answer I can give you is that it depends.  What specifically are the questions/answers in the Confessions that are not directly mentioned in the Catechism?  How do those answers related to the answers provided by the Catechism?  How do those answers relate to Scripture - not just the passages used to support those answers but also passages that might lead to a different answer?

NCLutheran

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #114 on: April 25, 2013, 12:41:29 PM »
Is not the doctrine of the Catechism not the same doctrine as the Bible? Does the Catechism not uphold true scripture at every instance? Is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran church not in complete accord with scripture?

If the answer to those questions is anything but an unqualified yes, how can we justifiably be Lutheran?

George Erdner

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #115 on: April 25, 2013, 01:16:05 PM »
But the souls of the righteous are in the hands of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seem to have died, and their departure was thought to be an evil thing, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace...their hope is full of immortality.—Wisdom 3

Interesting, but isn't this apocryphal? 

Am I wrong to rely on this as a more substantial proof?

Quote
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26 (ESV)

Mike


The bolded portion sounds to me like death then resurrection, and verse 26 sounds like what happens after the resurrection mentioned in verse 25.

Pastor Ted Crandall

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #116 on: April 25, 2013, 05:24:51 PM »
Is not the doctrine of the Catechism not the same doctrine as the Bible? Does the Catechism not uphold true scripture at every instance? Is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran church not in complete accord with scripture?

If the answer to those questions is anything but an unqualified yes, how can we justifiably be Lutheran?



"R.L. Austin, Ignorant Layman"? 

You sound quite wise to me! 

John Mundinger

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2013, 09:01:56 AM »
Is not the doctrine of the Catechism not the same doctrine as the Bible? Does the Catechism not uphold true scripture at every instance? Is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran church not in complete accord with scripture?

If the answer to those questions is anything but an unqualified yes, how can we justifiably be Lutheran?

It is for all Lutherans except Seminex subscribers on the LCMS clergy roster.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Jay Michael

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Re: Beliefs of Fundamentalists Christians
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2013, 10:10:17 AM »
Is not the doctrine of the Catechism not the same doctrine as the Bible? Does the Catechism not uphold true scripture at every instance? Is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran church not in complete accord with scripture?

If the answer to those questions is anything but an unqualified yes, how can we justifiably be Lutheran?
No one (except those that Mr. Mundinger speaks of) questions this.  The point that I have been making is that the catechism/confessions to not address the entire contents of Holy Scripture.  This fact does in no way discredits the catechism/confessions.  It simply acknowledges that Holy Scripture contains material not written of in the catechism and confessions.