Author Topic: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership  (Read 7226 times)

Jay Michael

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2013, 09:32:29 AM »
I'm not saying that. I am saying that America has never been all that moral, except, perhaps in idealized pictures we have of those "good ol' days."
While America has always had its failings, there have most definitely been periods in the country's history where active church membership has been much higher than today.

The direction this discussion is taking is indicative if the decline ... this discussion concerning how moral we should is distracting from the fact that the BSA actions clearly indicate that immoral activities are now considered mainstream and acceptable.  Lord have mercy. 

Charles_Austin

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2013, 12:16:20 PM »
Jay. writes:
While America has always had its failings, there have most definitely been periods in the country's history where active church membership has been much higher than today.

I muse:
Yep. A church "membership" often dictated by social pressure rather than faith. A church "membership" influenced by the social standing of the church or denomination.

Jay. writes:
The direction this discussion is taking is indicative if the decline ... this discussion concerning how moral we should is distracting from the fact that the BSA actions clearly indicate that immoral activities are now considered mainstream and acceptable.  Lord have mercy. 
I comment:
What immoral activities? Assuming that most Boy Scouts are unmarried, we still maintain that the pinnacle of sexual intimacy is reserved for those in marital relationships. But carry on, since we believe that sexuality is more than mechanics, I suppose Boy Scouts still might drift towards the kinds of relationships that frighten the horses of some people here.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2013, 12:26:25 PM »
I'm not saying that. I am saying that America has never been all that moral, except, perhaps in idealized pictures we have of those "good ol' days."
While America has always had its failings, there have most definitely been periods in the country's history where active church membership has been much higher than today.

The direction this discussion is taking is indicative if the decline ... this discussion concerning how moral we should is distracting from the fact that the BSA actions clearly indicate that immoral activities are now considered mainstream and acceptable.  Lord have mercy.


From what I've read and graphs I've seen, we are back to what is normal church attendance. There was a bump in attendance after WWII, probably helped by all those baby-boomer kids, that lasted through the 50's & 60's then started declining back to the more normal rate.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Jay Michael

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2013, 02:58:55 PM »
Jay. writes:
While America has always had its failings, there have most definitely been periods in the country's history where active church membership has been much higher than today.

I muse:
Yep. A church "membership" often dictated by social pressure rather than faith. A church "membership" influenced by the social standing of the church or denomination.
Please cite the source that indicates church "membership" is dictated by social pressures.
Jay. writes:
The direction this discussion is taking is indicative if the decline ... this discussion concerning how moral we should is distracting from the fact that the BSA actions clearly indicate that immoral activities are now considered mainstream and acceptable.  Lord have mercy. 

I comment:
What immoral activities? Assuming that most Boy Scouts are unmarried, we still maintain that the pinnacle of sexual intimacy is reserved for those in marital relationships. But carry on, since we believe that sexuality is more than mechanics, I suppose Boy Scouts still might drift towards the kinds of relationships that frighten the horses of some people here.
Almighty God consistently condemns the gay lifestyle throughout the Old and New Testament. The mere thought of such a lifestyle is a sin in the eyes of God.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2013, 03:35:50 PM »
Steven writes:
Children who need to be taught and directed to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

I muse:
And which of those tenets of the Scout Law have to do with sexual identity or orientation?

All of them, Charles.  In this particular instance, I think the Scout Law and Luther's Small Catechism on the Sixth Commandment, "We should fear and love God that we may lead a chaste and decent life in words and deeds, and each love and honor his spouse," have gone together quite well.  And when boys are defining themselves by their sexuality, well, something is way out of whack.

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2013, 03:58:56 PM »
It is a critical point worth remembering.


Actually, a better critical point worth remembering is described in Charles Murray's recent book, Coming Apart: The State of White America, 19602010. It ought to be no problem for Lutherans, of all people, to recognize that people have always fallen far short of the values/morals (religiosity, work ethic, industriousness, family, etc.) we nevertheless upheld as the way "respectable" people ought to live. 100 years ago, Progressives were trying to lift people out of their baser instincts and desires.  The Scout Law is reflective of such efforts.

Today the movers and shakers of society continue to live, and teach each other to live, "respectably," but no longer seem to see it as their place to encourage such ideals in others.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Charles_Austin

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2013, 06:08:46 PM »
Jay. writes (thumping his usual drum):
Please cite the source that indicates church "membership" is dictated by social pressures.

I comment:
I didn't say "is", Jay., I said "was". And the source? Me. Plus anyone who was around and observant in the 1950s, especially in the midwest. A family who did not go to church was considered strange. Children who did not go to Sunday School were considered on the road to perdition, somewhere far far south of Peoria.
We had lots of people in churches who were there out of custom, social norm, societal expectation and other reasons that had little to do with the intensity of their faith.
Furthermore, the churches were social centers; virtually all youth groups were church-related.
That is no longer the case; and it is no longer considered weird not to go to church on Sunday.

Jay Michael

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2013, 06:18:16 PM »
From what I've read and graphs I've seen, we are back to what is normal church attendance. There was a bump in attendance after WWII, probably helped by all those baby-boomer kids, that lasted through the 50's & 60's then started declining back to the more normal rate.
Please share these sources.

FatherWilliam57

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #98 on: April 23, 2013, 11:32:12 PM »
Found this on a pastor's blog about five months ago (can't remember which, though):  In the 1950s, Lutherans in this country were growing at an astonishing rate.  In fact, in April 1958, TIME magazine noted this and predicted that if things continued unabated, everyone in American would be Lutheran by the year 2000.  Well, we know how that turned out, don't we? (Perhaps TIME jinxed our forward momentum, especially considering that the last year Lutherans saw substantial growth in this country was in 1963. 

I'm quite sure most other denominations are in the same boat as we...
The Rev. William B. Henry, Jr.
Interim Pastor, St. Peter's Lutheran Church, Evans City, PA
"Put on the whole armor of God."

Jay Michael

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Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering reconsidering policy against gay membership
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2013, 12:12:33 AM »
Jay. writes (thumping his usual drum):
Please cite the source that indicates church "membership" is dictated by social pressures.

I comment:
I didn't say "is", Jay., I said "was". And the source? Me. Plus anyone who was around and observant in the 1950s, especially in the midwest. A family who did not go to church was considered strange. Children who did not go to Sunday School were considered on the road to perdition, somewhere far far south of Peoria.
We had lots of people in churches who were there out of custom, social norm, societal expectation and other reasons that had little to do with the intensity of their faith.
Furthermore, the churches were social centers; virtually all youth groups were church-related.
That is no longer the case; and it is no longer considered weird not to go to church on Sunday.
Sorry ... do not own a drum ... never played a drum ... do not have any desire to do so.

Thank you for elaborating on the source and background of your statement concerning membership.