Author Topic: Bible: "God Created The Universe"  (Read 38236 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #375 on: May 13, 2013, 04:38:23 PM »
Good question.
In my view Genesis 2 is a general observation (not necessarily in line with granting a reflection based on the successive and orderliness of events in Genesis 1).  Genesis is simply reflection first upon what is around the human being in that 6th day.  Within that 6th day God's manner of creating human beings presents a unique type of creation happening.  And of course this first human being was a first human being and we are being told so and how this happened.

In terms of the exegetical item, perhaps the form critical elements are there, ie. Priestly (Gen. 1) and Elohist (?) Genesis 2.  But the redactors were not somehow scrunching texts together but had in mind that Genesis 1 was the general description while Genesis 2 formed the specific focus on human creation (ie. day 6 of Genesis 1).  Correct me in terms of the exegetical stuff as I am not as current on these items.  Thanks.


The resource I use, Source of the Pentateuch: Texts, Introductions, Annotations, by Antony F. Campbell & Mark A. O'Brien, gives Genesis 1:1-2:4a as coming from the P source; and Genesis 2:4b-4:24 coming from the J source. Genesis 5, mostly returns to P.

I see the redaction being a bit like the opening of the New Testament. Different gospels are put together - even separating Luke's two volumes. No one thinks that the four gospels were written by the same person. We look at them as being written by different people, at different times to different people with different emphases - even though all are telling the story of Jesus - primarily his crucifixion and resurrection. Many think that it is a disservice to their authors to try and put the four gospels into one harmonized story. In a similar way, the redactor of Genesis took two stories of creation and put them at the beginning of the book. They were written by two different people at different times with different emphases - even though both are telling the story of the origin of creation by God's power. Trying to harmonize them does a disservice to both stories.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #376 on: May 13, 2013, 05:25:11 PM »
Good question.
In my view Genesis 2 is a general observation (not necessarily in line with granting a reflection based on the successive and orderliness of events in Genesis 1).  Genesis is simply reflection first upon what is around the human being in that 6th day.  Within that 6th day God's manner of creating human beings presents a unique type of creation happening.  And of course this first human being was a first human being and we are being told so and how this happened.

In terms of the exegetical item, perhaps the form critical elements are there, ie. Priestly (Gen. 1) and Elohist (?) Genesis 2.  But the redactors were not somehow scrunching texts together but had in mind that Genesis 1 was the general description while Genesis 2 formed the specific focus on human creation (ie. day 6 of Genesis 1).  Correct me in terms of the exegetical stuff as I am not as current on these items.  Thanks.


The resource I use, Source of the Pentateuch: Texts, Introductions, Annotations, by Antony F. Campbell & Mark A. O'Brien, gives Genesis 1:1-2:4a as coming from the P source; and Genesis 2:4b-4:24 coming from the J source. Genesis 5, mostly returns to P.

I see the redaction being a bit like the opening of the New Testament. Different gospels are put together - even separating Luke's two volumes. No one thinks that the four gospels were written by the same person. We look at them as being written by different people, at different times to different people with different emphases - even though all are telling the story of Jesus - primarily his crucifixion and resurrection. Many think that it is a disservice to their authors to try and put the four gospels into one harmonized story. In a similar way, the redactor of Genesis took two stories of creation and put them at the beginning of the book. They were written by two different people at different times with different emphases - even though both are telling the story of the origin of creation by God's power. Trying to harmonize them does a disservice to both stories.


I disagree.  In some cases redactors edit with a view toward harmonization in mind.  Consider the synoptic Gospels...I believe they are passion narratives with extended introductions.  The common denominator being the passion narratives in the sense that the thread of events of Jesus' death and resurrection is relatively the same in all three.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #377 on: May 13, 2013, 11:03:09 PM »
Good question.
In my view Genesis 2 is a general observation (not necessarily in line with granting a reflection based on the successive and orderliness of events in Genesis 1).  Genesis is simply reflection first upon what is around the human being in that 6th day.  Within that 6th day God's manner of creating human beings presents a unique type of creation happening.  And of course this first human being was a first human being and we are being told so and how this happened.

In terms of the exegetical item, perhaps the form critical elements are there, ie. Priestly (Gen. 1) and Elohist (?) Genesis 2.  But the redactors were not somehow scrunching texts together but had in mind that Genesis 1 was the general description while Genesis 2 formed the specific focus on human creation (ie. day 6 of Genesis 1).  Correct me in terms of the exegetical stuff as I am not as current on these items.  Thanks.


The resource I use, Source of the Pentateuch: Texts, Introductions, Annotations, by Antony F. Campbell & Mark A. O'Brien, gives Genesis 1:1-2:4a as coming from the P source; and Genesis 2:4b-4:24 coming from the J source. Genesis 5, mostly returns to P.

I see the redaction being a bit like the opening of the New Testament. Different gospels are put together - even separating Luke's two volumes. No one thinks that the four gospels were written by the same person. We look at them as being written by different people, at different times to different people with different emphases - even though all are telling the story of Jesus - primarily his crucifixion and resurrection. Many think that it is a disservice to their authors to try and put the four gospels into one harmonized story. In a similar way, the redactor of Genesis took two stories of creation and put them at the beginning of the book. They were written by two different people at different times with different emphases - even though both are telling the story of the origin of creation by God's power. Trying to harmonize them does a disservice to both stories.


I disagree.  In some cases redactors edit with a view toward harmonization in mind.  Consider the synoptic Gospels...I believe they are passion narratives with extended introductions.  The common denominator being the passion narratives in the sense that the thread of events of Jesus' death and resurrection is relatively the same in all three.


Yes, the basic outline of the passion narratives are pretty much the same. However, there are a lot of variations in the details. I study them, in Greek, side by side. There are a lot of differences. What seems likely to me, is that the oral tradition of the passion stayed more intact than other oral traditions about Jesus. Consider how similar the empty tomb stories are vs. the appearance accounts where even in the synoptics, no two writings have the same stories.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #378 on: May 14, 2013, 11:00:49 AM »
What is being said formerly as well as conversely by you is correct however.  Because since in the pre-fall existence (ie. deathless existence) it was not possible to die because of eating from the tree of life.  A and E did not eat from the TKGE and had no knowledge of good and evil.  They only honored God's voice exclusively and were in deathless existence.

Gotcha -- thanks for clarifying.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Jay Michael

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #379 on: May 14, 2013, 05:36:04 PM »
News of a Creation Conference this summer has been released. Society of Creation provides a wealth of information supporting the Biblical account of Creation.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #380 on: May 14, 2013, 10:10:26 PM »
News of a Creation Conference this summer has been released. Society of Creation provides a wealth of information supporting the Biblical account of Creation.

Dr. Matthew Becker has also commented on that upcoming conference and offered his critique of the LCMS stance on creationism on his blog: http://matthewlbecker.blogspot.com/2013/05/creationism-and-doctrine-of-creation-in.html
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #381 on: May 14, 2013, 10:52:52 PM »
Dr. Becker writes:
The purpose of the conference is to defend "young earth creationism," which the article defines as "the LCMS perspective of the earth being several thousand years old instead of millions of years old."

I comment:
He's quoting the article in the Reporter, your official magazine, and Pastor Doctor Heck of one of your Concordias says it is true; so I have to ask: Is it "the LCMS perspective" that the earth is several thousand years old instead of millions of years old? Where has the LCMS made this decision and written it into its policies?
Even during the doctrinal turmoil of the 1970s, I did not hear this view put forward as "the LCMS perspective" except for a few on the fringe of the discussions.
What is "the LCMS perspective" on the age of the earth and where is that perspective put forward as official?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 10:55:30 PM by Charles_Austin »

D. Engebretson

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #382 on: May 15, 2013, 08:09:20 AM »
Does Jay. or anyone else have an answer to my question; or are we just to be treated to more condemnations?

A number of resolutions have been adopted over the years supporting the traditional understanding of creation, including resolution 2-08A in 2004 which affirmed that "the Scriptures teach that God is the creator of all the exists and is therefore the Author and Giver of life" and that "the hypotheses of macro, organic, Darwinian evolution, including theistic evolution or any other model denying special, immediate, and miraculous creation, undercut this support for the honoring of life as a gift of God."
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #383 on: May 15, 2013, 09:22:33 AM »
That answer is not specific enough, Pastor Engebretson. The Lutheran Witness article and the Concordia professor say that the LCMS "view" is specifically a young (several thousand years) earth view of creation. Is that true or is it not true, and if true, where has the LCMS said its official "view" is that the earth was created several thousand years ago?
P.S. I don't care if the LCMS has done that, the LCMS can do that if it wishes; I just want to know where and how it did that. Because lacking support for that, the Lutheran Witness article and the Concordia pastor/professor seem to be wrong.


D. Engebretson

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #384 on: May 15, 2013, 09:44:42 AM »
That answer is not specific enough, Pastor Engebretson. The Lutheran Witness article and the Concordia professor say that the LCMS "view" is specifically a young (several thousand years) earth view of creation. Is that true or is it not true, and if true, where has the LCMS said its official "view" is that the earth was created several thousand years ago?
P.S. I don't care if the LCMS has done that, the LCMS can do that if it wishes; I just want to know where and how it did that. Because lacking support for that, the Lutheran Witness article and the Concordia pastor/professor seem to be wrong.

O.k. perhaps this will be more specific for you.  In A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod, adopted by the Synod in 1932, it states that "We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word and in six days." (from the section "Of Creation") -- The Brief Statement was adopted by an official covention of the Synod. 

BTW, the referenced article was not in the Lutheran Witness, but rather in the Reporter, the May issue.  The gentleman asserting the Synod's official position defending a young earth was the Rev. Dr. Joel Heck, theology professor at Concordia University - Texas. 
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #385 on: May 15, 2013, 10:29:44 AM »
I ask again, for clarification, Pastor Engebretson, does "six days" mean "six days" several thousand years ago, as referenced as the "synod's view" in the article; or could it be "six days" much longer ago?
Jay. wrongly attributes a motive to my question. The reason for my question is a search for understanding and clarification. Is the "young earth" (several thousand years) creation, the official view of the LCMS? When and where was this determined and how is it stated?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #386 on: May 15, 2013, 11:10:22 AM »
That answer is not specific enough, Pastor Engebretson.
As an ELCA'er without a dog in the LCMS hunt, the humble correspondent has NO grounds to dictate the content of answers to his inane diatribe. Perhaps the existence of his inane diatribe should not be acknowledged.

It is apparent that the humble correspondent's intent is to create strife and discontent within the Lord's Church.


We don't have to do anything to create strife and discontent within the LCMS. They do a very good job all by themselves.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

scott8

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #387 on: May 15, 2013, 11:16:34 AM »
Dr. Becker writes:
The purpose of the conference is to defend "young earth creationism," which the article defines as "the LCMS perspective of the earth being several thousand years old instead of millions of years old."

I comment:
He's quoting the article in the Reporter, your official magazine, and Pastor Doctor Heck of one of your Concordias says it is true; so I have to ask: Is it "the LCMS perspective" that the earth is several thousand years old instead of millions of years old? Where has the LCMS made this decision and written it into its policies?
Even during the doctrinal turmoil of the 1970s, I did not hear this view put forward as "the LCMS perspective" except for a few on the fringe of the discussions.
What is "the LCMS perspective" on the age of the earth and where is that perspective put forward as official?

Best I can tell, the Brief Statement is the most authoritative document on the topic.  Here is the article on Creation in its entirety:

5. We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space
of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty
creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of
creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert,
ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of
evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself.
Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a
reliable account of creation to God's own record, found in God's own book, the Bible. We
accept God's own record with full confidence and confess with Luther's Catechism: "I believe
that God has made me and all creatures."


It does not address whether the 6 days of creation were thousands, millions or billions of years ago on my read.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #388 on: May 15, 2013, 11:52:37 AM »
That is a clearer answer from Dr. Yakimow.

From the article cited upstream (emphasis added):
The galaxy may be vast — more than 150 billion light-years across — but that does not disprove the young age of the earth, according to the Rev. Dr. Joel Heck, theology professor at Concordia University Texas, Austin, Texas.
Astronomy holds many clues that support the LCMS perspective of the earth being several thousand years old instead of millions of years old, he said.
“There’s an awful lot of data that supports a young earth,” Heck said. “Most people are unaware of the fact that there is much scientific evidence, including the field of astronomy, that supports a young-earth position on origins.”
That topic and others will be addressed at the conference, “The Heavens Declare: What Astronomy Can Tell Us About Biblical Creation,” set for July 8-10 at Concordia University Wisconsin, Mequon, Wis. The conference is sponsored by the university and the Society of Creation, an organization founded by several Concordia University System professors, including Heck. The main purpose of the conference is to explain and defend the young-earth perspective.

   
So it is clear that not all Concordia professors agree on what the "LCMS perspective" is. This is good and healthy and not surprising.



D. Engebretson

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Re: Bible: "God Created The Universe"
« Reply #389 on: May 15, 2013, 11:58:44 AM »
I ask again, for clarification, Pastor Engebretson, does "six days" mean "six days" several thousand years ago, as referenced as the "synod's view" in the article; or could it be "six days" much longer ago?
Jay. wrongly attributes a motive to my question. The reason for my question is a search for understanding and clarification. Is the "young earth" (several thousand years) creation, the official view of the LCMS? When and where was this determined and how is it stated?

I understand the "six days" in the statement to be just what it says, six 24 hour days.  I realize that the document doesn't explicitly indicate that, but given the nature of the whole statement I can't see why it would mean anything other than that.  As quoted by Prof. Yakimow, you will notice that the full article in the Brief Statment seemingly rejects an interpretation that involves "immense periods of time."  Immense periods of time would be thousands or millions of years compared to the simple interpretation of days.  I suspect with this clarrification the original authors did not feel a need to be more specific. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI