Author Topic: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...  (Read 16095 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #195 on: April 10, 2013, 04:43:08 PM »
I have never been clear, Brian, as to your belief concerning the role that the Holy Spirit played in the Bible coming into existence.  It rather seems to me from what you have written that you believe that the Holy Spirit had the same roll in the writing of the Bible that He has in the writing of your sermons?  Is that a misperception?


Your perception is right. I have argued that it is the same Spirit working the same process. The difference is that scriptures have been designed the authoritative documents for the Christian church. Our sermons have not.


I even suggest in classes that the genre of "gospel" is quite similar to the genre of "sermon". Both take traditional materials, present them to the contemporary audience with the expectation that God will use these words to create and nourish faith in Jesus Christ.


If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and always, why shouldn't we expect that the way the Spirit helps/inspires us in our sermon writing would be the same as the Spirit helped/inspired the biblical writers? Unless you want to posit a change in the way the Spirit works from the first century to the 21st century.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #196 on: April 10, 2013, 04:47:06 PM »
I wrote:
It also weakens the doctrine of scripture by declaring that if anything in it - a piece of history, for example - is held to be incorrect, the entire Bible and its message become unreliable.

And Jay. wrote:
Please cite the source backing this statement ... I failed to draw the same conclusions.

I respond:
The "source," Jay., is common sense. Just because we learn that the Bible may not be bang-on, 100 percent, totally without question accurate on matters of cosmology, geography or biology or history does not destroy the Bible's message about God, our relationship to God, God's relationship to us, and the Gospel.
If you could be convinced that the Bible might have named a king of Edom or some other land incorrectly, would you doubt its message about salvation? Really? Do you need the Bible to be "right" about those things in order to believe the Gospel?
Twenty years ago I would have never believed I would hear a Lutheran pastor slamming The Holy Bible and just wanting us to believe The Gospel only...
WOW


Someone taught you poorly 20 years ago. It is the Gospel that saves, not the Bible. Those first apostles, including Paul, brought salvation to thousands of people before there was a Bible. What they had was the Gospel. The Bible brings salvation, insofar as it proclaims the Gospel. The Bible can and has been used to promote all kinds of false teachings. Without correctly distinguishing between Law and Gospel; the Bible will be misused.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pastor Ted Crandall

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #197 on: April 10, 2013, 05:24:49 PM »
Ted, I think you meant 9:41:29.  I don' know what I will be doing at 10:41 - probably the dishes.
 

 
Dan

lol  It still says 10:41 from my view -- but I'm out here on the coast... 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 05:43:29 PM by Pastor Ted Crandall »

Jay Michael

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #198 on: April 10, 2013, 05:31:52 PM »
I respond:
The "source," Jay., is common sense. Just because we learn that the Bible may not be bang-on, 100 percent, totally without question accurate on matters of cosmology, geography or biology or history does not destroy the Bible's message about God, our relationship to God, God's relationship to us, and the Gospel.
If you could be convinced that the Bible might have named a king of Edom or some other land incorrectly, would you doubt its message about salvation? Really? Do you need the Bible to be "right" about those things in order to believe the Gospel?
This confirms my suspicions ... you do not agree with the church body that wrote the document ... you do not agree with the document ... therefore without being able to quote the document, you state its conclusion ... which as I suspected is based on your opinions and beliefs. It is not surprising that I did not come to the same conclusions.

Pastor Ted Crandall

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #199 on: April 10, 2013, 05:41:51 PM »

“And what is it that preachers do, to this very day? Do they interpret and expound the Scriptures? Yet if the Scripture they expound is uncertain, who can assure us that their exposition is certain? Another new exposition? And who will expound the exposition? At this rate we will go on forever. In short, if Scripture is obscure or ambiguous, what part is there in God's giving it to us?”
― Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will

"When you decide which parts of Scripture are true, you appoint yourself the ultimate Judge."
― Ted Crandall
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 05:43:50 PM by Pastor Ted Crandall »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #200 on: April 10, 2013, 05:47:31 PM »

“And what is it that preachers do, to this very day? Do they interpret and expound the Scriptures? Yet if the Scripture they expound is uncertain, who can assure us that their exposition is certain? Another new exposition? And who will expound the exposition? At this rate we will go on forever. In short, if Scripture is obscure or ambiguous, what part is there in God's giving it to us?”
― Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will

"When you decide which parts of Scripture are true, you appoint yourself the ultimate Judge."
― Ted Crandall


There may be good reasons why Bondage of the Will did not become part of our Confessions - as well with the vast majority of Luther's writings.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Voelker

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #201 on: April 10, 2013, 06:07:08 PM »
There may be good reasons why Bondage of the Will did not become part of our Confessions - as well with the vast majority of Luther's writings.

Actually, a case can be made that it sorta, kinda is part of the Confessions. See Article II, paragraph 44 of the Formula; its conclusions (at the least) are accepted whole. I'm not sure how far I'd want to push that argument, but it can be made, and has (some) textual support. YMMV.

George Erdner

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #202 on: April 10, 2013, 06:23:22 PM »
Ted, I think you meant 9:41:29.  I don' know what I will be doing at 10:41 - probably the dishes.

 
Dan

lol  It still says 10:41 from my view -- but I'm out here on the coast...


I should add this to the tech support thread. Your user profile includes setting your time zone. A more reliable way to refer to any post in a thread is by the post number.

« Reply #198 on: Today at 05:24:49 PM »


The post I am replying to is #198. That's easy to find regardless of time zone.

readselerttoo

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #203 on: April 10, 2013, 07:01:20 PM »

“And what is it that preachers do, to this very day? Do they interpret and expound the Scriptures? Yet if the Scripture they expound is uncertain, who can assure us that their exposition is certain? Another new exposition? And who will expound the exposition? At this rate we will go on forever. In short, if Scripture is obscure or ambiguous, what part is there in God's giving it to us?”
― Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will

"When you decide which parts of Scripture are true, you appoint yourself the ultimate Judge."
― Ted Crandall


There may be good reasons why Bondage of the Will did not become part of our Confessions - as well with the vast majority of Luther's writings.



Luther's Bondage of the Will is not a confessionally sourced document, ie. it does not possess the qualities for it to be contained within the BOC.  It is an occasional document.  Luther himself said that it was his best theological writing, though.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 07:17:37 PM by readselerttoo »

Weedon

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #204 on: April 10, 2013, 07:07:49 PM »
Pr. Rahn,

The Formula does cite it, though:  "Even so Dr. Luther wrote of this matter also in his book De Servo Arbitrio, i. e., Of the Captive Will of Man, in opposition to Erasmus, and elucidated and supported this position well and thoroughly, and afterward he repeated and explained it in his glorious exposition of the book of Genesis, especially of Gen. 26. There likewise his meaning and understanding of some other peculiar disputations introduced incidentally by Erasmus, as of absolute necessity, etc., have been secured by him in the best and most careful way against all misunderstanding and perversion; to which we also hereby appeal and refer others." FC SD III:44.

That at least sounds to me as though the Concordists referred further questions on the matter to De Servo Arbitrio and to Genesis Commentary.
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
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Jay Michael

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #205 on: April 10, 2013, 07:14:19 PM »
I should add this to the tech support thread. Your user profile includes setting your time zone. A more reliable way to refer to any post in a thread is by the post number.
« Reply #198 on: Today at 05:24:49 PM »
While by far the best reference to a post is the link created by the quote feature. ;)  If for various reasons the quote function is NOT used, use of BOTH reply number and date/time is best.  The reply number becomes unreliable if a post upstream is deleted as a deletion renumbers ALL posts down stream.  Providing the actual date ... rather than using "TODAY" or "YESTERDAY" is highly encouraged as these designations change as the clock strikes midnight depending how your profile is set.

readselerttoo

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #206 on: April 10, 2013, 07:23:51 PM »
Pr. Rahn,

The Formula does cite it, though:  "Even so Dr. Luther wrote of this matter also in his book De Servo Arbitrio, i. e., Of the Captive Will of Man, in opposition to Erasmus, and elucidated and supported this position well and thoroughly, and afterward he repeated and explained it in his glorious exposition of the book of Genesis, especially of Gen. 26. There likewise his meaning and understanding of some other peculiar disputations introduced incidentally by Erasmus, as of absolute necessity, etc., have been secured by him in the best and most careful way against all misunderstanding and perversion; to which we also hereby appeal and refer others." FC SD III:44.

That at least sounds to me as though the Concordists referred further questions on the matter to De Servo Arbitrio and to Genesis Commentary.


Yes.  I was simply saying that as a writing itself it does not appear in the BOC because of its occasional nature.  However, the confessors knew of its value enough to refer to it in the Formula.  By that citation in the Formula itself serves to indicate that Bondage was an extremely important document for reference within the context of publicly making statements about the Gospel.  Luther himself designated (somewhere and I cannot think of where at this time) Bondage as his best theological work and as it stands it shows the wide discrepancy between Augsburg and Rome at that time in terms of each group's hermeneutical matters.

Weedon

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #207 on: April 10, 2013, 07:27:05 PM »
Agreed. I think when the Formula says: "to which we also hereby appeal and refer others" it's saying "and for the rest of the story, read Luther!" :)
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
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Jay Michael

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #208 on: April 10, 2013, 07:29:01 PM »
"When you decide which parts of Scripture are true, you appoint yourself the ultimate Judge."
― Ted Crandall
Taking a break from the taxing job of preparing the tax return took me out on my bicycle ... 30 degrees cooler than 24 hours earlier ... gone were the shorts and sleeves ... but the cool air did clear the mind enough for the revelation that the belief in the errency of Scripture requires a much greater faith than the belief in the inerrancy of scripture. 

While belief in the inerrancy of scripture is a take it or leave it proposition (believe it or not) the belief in the errency of scripture requires additional faith in the person/process that determines what content is error free an thus must be believed and practiced and that material that is riddled with error and therefore must be ignored.

As for myself ... as I have the faith of a mustard seed, I guess all I can handle is the belief in the inerrancy of God's Holy and inspired Word.

readselerttoo

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Re: A Modest Proposal for Polygamy...
« Reply #209 on: April 10, 2013, 07:36:46 PM »
Agreed. I think when the Formula says: "to which we also hereby appeal and refer others" it's saying "and for the rest of the story, read Luther!" :)



It is also interesting to note that the Bondage citation appears in the Formula of Concord.  The Formula is a direct exposition of hermeneutical clarification within the Lutheran parties (of disagreement)...meant first for discussion intra-Lutheran and then for a wider/inter publicity with Rome and the Calvinists.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 07:39:54 PM by readselerttoo »