Author Topic: WordAlone  (Read 30884 times)

Eric_Swensson

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2007, 09:35:38 PM »
And the logic is what, that denomination is the only form of church that is possible?
I don't believe that I called LCMC a "denomination," but "Lutheran Body" as our Yearbook does.

Oh. So a Lutheran body includes an association in its meaning? What was this discussion all about anyway?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2007, 09:49:36 PM »
Oh. So a Lutheran body includes an association in its meaning? What was this discussion all about anyway?
Yup, like The Association of Free Lutheran Congregations.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Kidd, STS

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2007, 09:51:21 PM »
I believe that the LCMC is just the AFLC with women ordination. Am I right?

Richard Kidd, STS

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2007, 04:59:55 PM »
Word Alone is having Pastor Mark Chavez here in Southwestern Texas at an ELCA church. People are concerned about the on-going sexuality study. We have already had an ELCA church that became LCMC last year because of the last sexuality study.

Coolrevgaus

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2007, 09:29:21 PM »
Some thoughts. The TAALC has been drawing closer to the Missouri Synod; its' students train at Concordia Fort Wayne, it has now joined in altar and pulpit fellowship with Missouri. An often volitile denomination it has some problem with the charismatic movement etc.,and is now reaching greater stability under LCMS doctrinal grounding. The LCMC is very congregationally centered in polity but also gives signifcant authority to districts which can be geographically or doctrinally based. It has grown significantly from its founding a few years ago and includes congreagtions which are still in the ELCA and or Word Alone as well as congreagtions which have left the ELCA, and new starts. Interestingly it has a number of congreagtons in Mexico and Vietnam it affiliates with and calls full members so that if a delegate from those countries would come to the national LCMC assembly that person would have fully voting power, thus it is an international church body. Two noteable realities about LCMC-it is pro women's ordination and the size of its member congregations is often much larger than in the more conservative Lutheran bodies, giving it a certain vibrancy that means it is not just the more conservative small church in town as is often the case with the other bodies which play that role against ELCA congregations in many parts of the midwest. The LCMC has also had some internal problems particularly now with its Augsbrg District.  I think all this info is accurate, as an ELCA member I am on the outside looking in to all this. Word Alone has expanded its outreach and now has staff people on the west coat, east coast and midwest, it is the main group in terms of loyal opposition to the ELCA and will remain so for the forseeable future should the ELCA not have a major split. Paul Gausmann

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2007, 09:36:53 PM »
... it is the main group in terms of loyal opposition to the ELCA and will remain so for the forseeable future should the ELCA not have a major split.
I would not call them the "loyal opposition to the ELCA." Most are still part of the ELCA. This is still their church -- or better, this is still our church. They do present a "conservative conscience" of the ELCA. Although I don't think that it's the only "conservative conscience" within the ELCA. Similarly, I believe that there are different "liberal" streams running through the ELCA.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Eric_Swensson

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2007, 10:18:07 PM »
... it is the main group in terms of loyal opposition to the ELCA and will remain so for the forseeable future should the ELCA not have a major split.
I would not call them the "loyal opposition to the ELCA." Most are still part of the ELCA. This is still their church -- or better, this is still our church. They do present a "conservative conscience" of the ELCA. Although I don't think that it's the only "conservative conscience" within the ELCA. Similarly, I believe that there are different "liberal" streams running through the ELCA.

The term "loyal oppostion" connotes an opposition from within.

Charles_Austin

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2007, 10:38:05 PM »
Eric writes (Re the statement about Word Alone):
The term "loyal oppostion" connotes an opposition from within.

I comment:
Ah, but there is that pesky preposition. Someone wrote "loyal opposition to the ELCA" and Brian pointed out that most of the WA people are still in the ELCA. "Loyal opposition" does not always connote "within," especially when the preposition suggests otherwise.

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peter_speckhard

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2007, 12:02:24 AM »
Loyal is the operative word. How many times have we heard that disagreement with the president is not un-American? I took the ELCA as referring to the current leadership and direction of the insitution. Can you think of any instance in which "loyal opposition" referred to opposition from without? 

Charles_Austin

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2007, 04:49:46 AM »
Peter writes:
Can you think of any instance in which "loyal opposition" referred to opposition from without?

I comment:
Yes. When one writes "loyal opposition to" an institution and that to which one is supposedly "loyal" transcends the referrant institution. (But we digress.)  ;D

Vern

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2007, 12:10:17 PM »
Charles,

"but we digress??

So what's new?

Vern

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2007, 12:41:06 PM »
Loyal is the operative word. How many times have we heard that disagreement with the president is not un-American? I took the ELCA as referring to the current leadership and direction of the insitution. Can you think of any instance in which "loyal opposition" referred to opposition from without?
LOYAL = adj. "giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to a person or institution"
OPPOSITION = n. "resistance or dissent, expressed in action or argument"

While I do hear some loyalty towards the ELCA from some of the conservative critics, I also hear words and see actions that do not indicate "giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to the ELCA. If they were loyal, there wouldn't be pastors and congregations jumping to LCMC or AALC or AFLC. They would remain committed to the ELCA. Granted, many are; but those that seem to make the headlines are those deserting the ELCA.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Eric_Swensson

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2007, 12:47:11 PM »
Loyal is the operative word. How many times have we heard that disagreement with the president is not un-American? I took the ELCA as referring to the current leadership and direction of the insitution. Can you think of any instance in which "loyal opposition" referred to opposition from without?
LOYAL = adj. "giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to a person or institution"
OPPOSITION = n. "resistance or dissent, expressed in action or argument"

While I do hear some loyalty towards the ELCA from some of the conservative critics, I also hear words and see actions that do not indicate "giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to the ELCA. If they were loyal, there wouldn't be pastors and congregations jumping to LCMC or AALC or AFLC. They would remain committed to the ELCA. Granted, many are; but those that seem to make the headlines are those deserting the ELCA.

Can you imagine somene being more loyal to something than their denomination?

Charles_Austin

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2007, 01:11:13 PM »
Eric probes:
Can you imagine somene being more loyal to something than their denomination?

I comment:
Yes, of course, but that is not what we were discussing in this consideration of the semantics of prepositions and the actual meaning of an over-used oxymoronic phrase.

(Psst! Eric! Loyalty to a denomination that reared us, trained us, and sustains us, is not evil.)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2007, 01:18:21 PM »
Can you imagine somene being more loyal to something than their denomination?
Of course, e.g., one's beliefs about God and scriptures, one's spouse and family, one's own "flock" s/he has been called to pastor; but when that causes them to oppose the ELCA, they are no longer loyal to the denomination.

It is also possible -- and probable -- that members who are loyal to the ELCA will disagree with some statements or practices of the denomination; then they should express their opposition to those particular issues AND express the loyalty to the ELCA as a whole, affirming the aspects of the denomination that they approve of support, sending in their benevolence dollars, praying for the leaders and the witness and ministry of our church.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]