Author Topic: WordAlone  (Read 30154 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #165 on: July 04, 2007, 06:03:05 AM »
I have a question for Word Alone people.
Was Professor Donfried's address at the recent gathering, in which he rather solidly denounced the whole ELCA as unbiblical and cancerous and given over to sub-Christian forces, considered a call for separation? It seems to me it would have to be read that way. I saw little in the way of "let us reason together" call for dialog or correction, but a declaration that he considered the situation in the ELCA hopeless.
Did people applaud? Or did they say "it's not that bad"?
Was their discussion about escaping the horror he described? Or plans to re-direct the ELCA?
Is Word Alone a half-way house for people on the way out? Or does it represent those who want to work together and talk about the way things are or should be?

ptmccain

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #166 on: July 04, 2007, 07:13:52 AM »
What makes you think I deny the truth of Genesis 3?

I don't deny the truth of Aesop's Fables either, Pr. Stoffregen. That's not the point.

Jesus Christ and His apostle, St. Paul, teach us that Adam and Eve were actual human beings, who actually were the first humans, who actually fell into sin.

Do you agree with Christ and Paul?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 07:16:04 AM by ptmccain »

Deb_H.

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #167 on: July 04, 2007, 11:11:44 AM »
I have a question for Word Alone people.
 
I'll take a run at some of these questions, since I consider myself a "WordAloner."
Quote
Is Word Alone a half-way house for people on the way out? Or does it represent those who want to work together and talk about the way things are or should be?
This is part of the problem in WordAlone, because there's a lot of both.  And there's frustrations on both "sides" -- those who believe we should already be gone get upset with those who want to stay because we could do so much more "together;" and those who want to stay get upset with those who have left because we could do so much more together in the ELCA.  The language of halfway house describing WordAlone is regularly used by the folks in LCMC, but rarely used by those who are still in the ELCA.
Quote
Was Professor Donfried's address at the recent gathering, in which he rather solidly denounced the whole ELCA as unbiblical and cancerous and given over to sub-Christian forces, considered a call for separation? It seems to me it would have to be read that way. I saw little in the way of "let us reason together" call for dialog or correction, but a declaration that he considered the situation in the ELCA hopeless.
Did people applaud? Or did they say "it's not that bad"?
Was their discussion about escaping the horror he described? Or plans to re-direct the ELCA?

I wasn't at the convention but I imagine his address was received with polite applause.  The crowd tends to be mostly older, and mostly Norwegian, so to expect cheering in the aisles is a little over the top.  Donfried is actually more of an EC type, in my opinion; the true WordAlone spin was probably more along the lines of what Steve Paulson said.

WordAlone types have no problem hearing where the problems are, and then they mostly want to go try and 'fix' them, (some might argue this is codependency), rather than run away in horror.  It's only when they realize that their own efforts come to naught and only Christ can reform His church that they throw themselves on the mercy of Christ and go to proclaim, teach, live, witness to ...

Lou

ptmccain

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Dumb question
« Reply #168 on: July 04, 2007, 11:34:03 AM »
I've got to ask a dumb question. Messages posted under the name: "Deb H" are signed "Lou."

Was gibt?

janielou13

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #169 on: July 04, 2007, 12:12:56 PM »
Do note, Erma, that the LCMS folks who support the position you very well describe in your post, supported and elected a woman to the board of directors of the LCMS at the last convention,,,,, truth be told, gender/orders of creation made not a whit of differance when it came to getting one of their own on the board of directors.

Deb_H.

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #170 on: July 04, 2007, 12:14:14 PM »
Was gibt?

Frau und Herr.
Wir sind ein fleisch, und ich habe kein [typing skills].

Lou


Note from Debbie:
And our German skills aren't what they used to be either.


Deb_H.

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #171 on: July 04, 2007, 12:18:12 PM »
I've got to ask a dumb question. Messages posted under the name: "Deb H" are signed "Lou."

OK, to avoid confusion, we are now "Team Hesse."   You'll have to check the botom of the post to see whose opinion is being posted.

Debbie Hesse

Eric_Swensson

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #172 on: July 04, 2007, 01:01:52 PM »
I have a question for Word Alone people.
Was Professor Donfried's address at the recent gathering, in which he rather solidly denounced the whole ELCA as unbiblical and cancerous and given over to sub-Christian forces, considered a call for separation? It seems to me it would have to be read that way. I saw little in the way of "let us reason together" call for dialog or correction, but a declaration that he considered the situation in the ELCA hopeless.
Did people applaud? Or did they say "it's not that bad"?
Was their discussion about escaping the horror he described? Or plans to re-direct the ELCA?
Is Word Alone a half-way house for people on the way out? Or does it represent those who want to work together and talk about the way things are or should be?

Did you not like Donfried's address? Why don't you share exactly what it is he said that gives you pause. It is really hard to react to the emotional explosion above. And it should be said, that Donfried speaks for himself, does so quite eloquently. I actually haven't had time to read the whole talk, but I have read his books and articles and quite agree with how he explains the alien hermeneutics which have brought such confusion. So, please Charles, try and say something based in reality that one of us can respond to. As far as all your scenarios, the short answer is No, WAN is people who are fighting for their vision of church. Go back to the web site. They really are a reform group.

Perhaps we could also talk about the basic difference between reform (going back to restore) to revision (being "progressive").

JMOtterman

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #173 on: July 04, 2007, 01:53:15 PM »
Eric,

Is it possible to be a reformist and a revisionist?  Can a pastor be both a traditional confessionalist and a progressive theologian?

Charles,

Eric does have a point...what did the professor say exactly at the place where he was speaking, or were you just stirring the pot?  Were your questions intentionally pushing buttons to see if Eric S. or Brain S. would respond?  Do you believe people are kind of like, Pavlov's dog---ask a question foam at the mouth ??? make a reactionary response to start a new thread...

PJ   

Eric_Swensson

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #174 on: July 04, 2007, 01:56:54 PM »
Eric,

Is it possible to be a reformist and a revisionist? Can a pastor be both a traditional confessionalist and a progressive theologian?

"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26) 

BeornBjornson

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #175 on: July 04, 2007, 01:59:56 PM »
Pastor Austin,
Have you actually read or heard (or watched on DVD) Dr. Donfried's address in its entirety? Or are you simply reacting to "reporting" a la the July Lutheran (something for which you have previously and elsewhere criticized others, for simply reacting to "reporting" of what someone may or may not have said, instead of actually reading or hearing the person's words). I had the privilege of hearing Karl twice in a little over two months time, give essentially the same address (at a conference in Cedar Falls, IA in Feb sponsored by our synod reform group Call to Faithfulness; and at the WordAlone spring convention in Golden Valley, MN Apr 30-May 2). He did not denounce the whole ELCA as "unbiblical and cancerous." He did not issue or support a call for separation nor declare the situation in the ELCA as hopeless.

Yes, his critique of much of the ELCA's leadership and seminary education, particularly in the accomodation of "alien hermeneutics" such as "radical feminism" et al, was trenchant and pointed. What I suppose has some on the revisionist side concerned is that a strong evangelical catholic (a personal friend of B16 and others in the RC and Anglican leadership) was so warmly welcomed and could speak in such agreement with confessing evangelicals or evangelical Lutherans (whichever terminology applies to WordAloners). Much of the revisionist agenda of the last decade and a half has advanced because of the division between the two orthodox poles (divided by ecclesiology). That the two sides can set aside their ecclesiological disagreements to focus on more critical threats to Lutheran Christian orthodoxy suggests that the revisionist march to ascendancy in the ELCA is not such an assured outcome.

Pastor Ken Kimball

pilgrimpriest

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #176 on: July 04, 2007, 02:31:02 PM »
Yes, his critique of much of the ELCA's leadership and seminary education, particularly in the accomodation of "alien hermeneutics" such as "radical feminism" et al, was trenchant and pointed.   What I suppose has some on the revisionist side concerned is that a strong evangelical catholic (a personal friend of B16 and others in the RC and Anglican leadership) was so warmly welcomed and could speak in such agreement with confessing evangelicals or evangelical Lutherans (whichever terminology applies to WordAloners).   Much of the revisionist agenda of the last decade and a half has advanced because of the division between the two orthodox poles (divided by ecclesiology).  That the two sides can set aside their ecclesiological disagreements to focus on more critical threats to Lutheran Christian orthodoxy suggests that the revisionist march to ascendancy in the ELCA is not such an assured outcome. 

Pastor Ken Kimball

And the Word Alone folks can also count some Eastern Orthodox among their friends. That is to say friends who have little time for TEC's interpretation of the "Historic Episcopacy" and its misuse in CCM. I'm certain an ecumenical conversation with Pr. Jaynan Clark Egland would be far more pleasant and productive than one with the Rt. Rev. John Shelby Spong.

Priest RKM

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #177 on: July 04, 2007, 03:06:33 PM »
Jesus Christ and His apostle, St. Paul, teach us that Adam and Eve were actual human beings, who actually were the first humans, who actually fell into sin.
Jesus says nothing about Adam.

I take seriously the meaning of the Hebrew word, 'adam. In the beginning God created humankind (see Genesis 1:26-27). I count 26 times the Hebrew 'adam occurs in Genesis 1-4. Only once does the NRSV translate it with "Adam" in those four chapters.

No one was present at the beginning of creation. So either one has to believe the words of Genesis floated down from heaven in some way to Moses, i.e., God gave a direct revelation to Moses -- a belief not held by progressive scholars today; or that they are the product of ancient Israel's developing tradition. The two creation stories in Genesis 1-2:4a and Genesis 2:4b-4:24 developed over a long period of time. First, as oral traditions, where creation stories of other cultures were modified to fit Israel's monotheistic beliefs (there are similarities to other creation stories of Near Eastern people), then written down, and finally compiled into the book we know as Genesis.

At some point in history, I believe that God created humankind. At some point in history, humankind failed to live as God intended them to live. We have inherited humankind's nature of turning away from God, of disobeying God, of being sinners.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 03:14:14 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

janielou13

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #178 on: July 04, 2007, 03:14:27 PM »
Gee, Pastor S, that is really a quite accurate restatement of St. Augustine's position.

peter_speckhard

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Re: WordAlone
« Reply #179 on: July 04, 2007, 03:31:29 PM »
In Matthew Jesus responds to the Pharisees about divorce by saying "Have you not read that in the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said..." Jesus refers them to the Scriptures (have you not read?), to the beginning, and to the words of Genesis 2 as the very words of the Creator (otherwise who "said"?). This saying of Jesus makes perfect sense according to a literal reading of Genesis. It is subject to a long-winded scholarly debunking whenever and wherever the local Pharisees have access to the work of progressive theologians. Seriously. If anyone today who didn't know the Gospel account tried to answer a question concerning divorce with the answer Jesus actually gave, he would be dismissed as a fundamentalist.