Pastor Fienen writes:
What does the ELCA stand for? Naturally there are the Confessional commitments in the Constitution.
I comment:
Yes. Thank you for that. But we will have a problem below with the "stands for" comment.
Pastor Fienen writes:
Over the years, there have been a number of Social Statements, press releases, statements by the PB and the like communicating to the membership and the world at large the opinion of, if not the ELCA as a whole, the opinion of those who would normally be expected to speak for the ELCA.
I comment:
This is a bit imprecise. Social statements are "teachings," rather than "position papers" as narrowly defined; rather than "stands." It is not necessary to affirm what ELCA social statements say in order to be in the ELCA and they make no pretense of communicating what the "ELCA as a whole" stands for. And, yes, there is nothing wrong with our leaders having opinions and expressing them. Pastors do it every Sunday and every time they teach.
Pastor Fienen:
None of these, I hasten to add, approach being considered part of the formal confession of This Church, or with the expectation that everybody in This Church will agree.
Me:
Thank you for that. But I don't think you are comfortable with that.
Pastor Fienen:
Still, taken together they at least give an idea of what the ELCA stands for.
Me:
We continue the problem with "stands for."
Pastor Fienen:
The ELCA is a progressive church body, whose theology comes out of the Lutheran tradition and is open to most of the theological tools and themes common to Western mainline Protestant churches.
Me:
I don't care for the use of a single, partisan modifier for any church body, but I guess we sort of have to live with that. I'm not sure what all those "tools" are that are "common."
Pastor Fienen:
When it comes to social stands..., the ELCA is comfortable with what is normally considered "progressive" positions and generally parallels what would be typicsl of the Democratic party.
Me:
Aside from our confessions of faith, governing documents, synods, congregations, and church-wide organization; there is no "ELCA." To use "the ELCA" in this broad context is inaccurate and technically impossible. "The ELCA," in any of its "expressions" - congregations, and synods, for example - might be comfortable with the views of other parties. And that would be o.k.
Pastor Fienen:
This is, roughly speaking, what I take the ELCA to stand for.
Me:
See above. A congregation of the ELCA could take positions, if it wanted to, on any number of things that would not fit your stereotype stated above. And it would not endanger its relationship with the ELCA for doing that. You want to box us in. Bad idea.
Pastor Fienen:
Perhaps it is just the LCMS in me, but it seems to me that at least one consideration that some people have in choosing a church and denomination is that it stands for much the same things that they do.
Me:
Yes, that is the LCMS in you. It depends upon the "things," doesn't it? I am a member of the ACLU;I do not endorse quit a bit of the things they do and downright oppose some other things. But I support their general purpose and believe they do good work.
Pastor Fienen:
Similarly, for a congregation they might generally want to be associated with other congregations and a denomination where there is a congruence in what they stsnd for. If nothing else one ends up explaning over and over that yes, my church/denomination stands for this but I don't.
Me:
No, you don't. And even if you do, so what? It's all part of our discussion and individual witness. I even welcome the chance to explain or disagree.
Pastor Fienen:
Obviously, there are other considerations involved in choices of affiliation, but could this not be one, more important to some than to others?
Me:
But as for those congregations and people leaving the ELCA, are we not being told their departure goes far far beyond a simple difference of opinions about one thing or another? I think you diminish and minimize the conscientious stance of those who have left.
Pastor Fienen:
What I would suggest is that this could be another reason for disaffiliation other than phobias against certain groups of people, egomania, or frustrated greed formal power (see the artcle that started this thread).
Me:
Yes, but this being a real world, and our friends and colleagues being real people; it is not incorrect to state that those things did play a role in the decisions of some. Not all, but some; and I don't know why people are so upset that in this one place, a man speaks that truth.
Pastor Fienen:
None of this questions the legitimacy of the decision processes whereby stands were taken. I'm simply suggesting another interpretation for why some have felt the need to leave.
Me:
Let us not forget those who have contended that the whole process was corrupt, manipulated and even "illegal."
Pastor Fienen:
But has the ELCA taken a stand on homosexuality? Officially, this church has adopted four different stands on homosexuality as acceptable in this church (HSGT).
Me:
See above. A social statement is a teaching, not a "stand" in the usual sense of that word.
Pastor Fienen:
But formal documents do not tell the whole story. And the question of where to stand on homosexuality is not just a church question but is very much a cultural and societal issue. Might some find that being a part of a denomination that tolerates but does not support where they stand on this hot issue insufficient and seek an affiliation that supports their stand?
Me:
And if you want to pick a church because it aligns comfortably with what you believe socially and politically and supports you politically, go for it. I find that disturbing.
Pastor Fienen:
In the case of the ordinstion of people in a PALMSGR, on the local level opting out is fairly simple and straight forward, simply don't call such an individual. ... Can a congregation the conscientiously refuses to call a pastor in a same-sex partnership also refuse to acknowledge a neighboring ELCA pastor as legitimate?
Me:
Can you LCMS pastors acknowledge nearby pastors of other denominations who are women? Can you partner with them in certain things, even if you would not have them on your clergy roster? (BTW, I know that some of you can't.)
Pastor Fienen:
The ELCA has taken her stand as a church body that ordains partnered homosexuals. ... Some within the ELCA cannot tolerate that, for reasons different than ego, fear, or power hunger.
Me:
No one disputes this.
What continues to amaze me is 1) Pastor Fienen's repeated on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand stereotype of the dynamics of the ELCA, 2) the refusal in this small discussion thread to recognize that some people did indeed leave the ELCA for reasons that were other than pure, undiluted, noble, honorable, self-less commitment to "The Truth Of All Things."
I think it's great that some in the ELCA question some of our teachings on social issues. (I think it's great that some in the LCMS question some of its teachings.) I think it's great that a congregation can call a partnered gay or lesbian pastor and It think it's great that we cannot force a congregation to call anyone.
Pastor Fienen seems uncomfortable with this; and tries to project his feelings on the ELCA. I don't think he understands us or grasps the idea of real diversity within a church body.
Hence my lengthy response.
We are, Pastor Fienen and others, a multi-faceted church body. I think that's terrific. I've got people in my current parish who, I know for certain, hold views on political and social issues that are nowhere near those expressed in some of our social statements or by our Presiding Bishop. (And I print some of them in our newsletter, even though I wish he had a better ghost-writer.) But they recognize that we in the church do not have to agree on everything to be in the church together.