The Lutheran Study Bible

[mariemeyer]

Pastor Tibbetts:


What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???


What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 


Marie
 

[Norman Teigen]

To  Wallenstein:   Ask the ELS President directly about the next twenty years.  And tell him that Norman Teigen sent you.

[Steven Tibbetts]

Pastor Tibbetts:

What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???

What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 

Sister Marie, in the notes you reference above, I see nothing that leads to a conclusion that 1 Cor. 12:1 refers solely to male siblings.

The note on in "brothers" on page 1901 that says here St. Paul is speaking "specifically for men who led congregations," emphasizing the maleness of the leaders, is not out of line as an interpretation, particularly in an age unwilling to acknowledge distinctions between males and females.  It is not that long ago that many would have simply presumed that was the interpretation.

The note is more restrictive than I would first interpret, but I do not think in terms of "every member a minister" nor "every minister a pastor." But that St. Paul is not automatically speaking of everyone here, as I've been taught to understand, is an interpretation worth pondering. Clearly Paul is speaking of "ministry" here, and I understand that to be more that The Ministry.

Pax, Steven+

[Dave Benke]

Marie, those notes in TLSB are contradicted by
Gregory Lockwood's Concordia Commentary on
1 Corinthians.   He stresses that ALL Christians
have these gifts to upbuild the Christian Church.

"Each of these gifts of grace (12:4) services (12:5
should be understood  as a comprehensive
expression for the triune God  giving to and
serving through the believer."   Page 450

This being the Epiphany love/gifts cycle in the Sunday epistle lessons, I'm working on a congregational leadership renewal under the theme "Excel to Edify" (I Corinthians 14:12).  This to an oldster like you, Dave Likeness, would be easily seen as a purloined theme from our old Milwaukee days, when Prexy Stuenkel had a theme for every year (The Place is Too Small, etc) and one year it was "Excel to Edify." 

Excel to Edify means = Baptismal excellence in utilizing the Gifts of the Spirit for the building up of the Body of Christ to engage the world with the Gospel of hope. 

It never has occurred to me until this little set of postings that the gifts of the Spirit are somehow gender-determined or designated.  For pete's sake.  Ridiculous.  That will not be the teaching emanating from 105 Highland Place in Brooklyn. 

Dave Benke

[Dave Likeness]

Bishop Benke,

As I recall my days on that postage stamp campus
at Concordia, Milwaukee we got our Lutheran Bible
Study from two men.  The Law from Dean Ackmann
and the Gospel from Prexy Stuenkel.  One of them
talked like General George S. Patton and the other
spoke like Motivational Speaker Zig Ziglar.

[Dave Benke]

Bishop Benke,

As I recall my days on that postage stamp campus
at Concordia, Milwaukee we got our Lutheran Bible
Study from two men.  The Law from Dean Ackmann
and the Gospel from Prexy Stuenkel.  One of them
talked like General George S. Patton and the other
spoke like Motivational Speaker Zig Ziglar.

Yes, and oddly enough, you had to like both of them, all things considered.

Dave Benke

[Dave Likeness]

Dean Ackmann's job was to make men out of boys.
He felt that sports was one way to help future
pastors become mentally and physically tough.

Prexy Stuenkel 's job was to teach the Old
Testament in the classroom.  He tried to make
Bible scholars out of his students.

According to one former student, Basketball Coach
Ackmann told one player that he could help the
team more by playing in the band.  He immediately
walked out of the practice and never returned.

[Dave Benke]

Dean Ackmann's job was to make men out of boys.
He felt that sports was one way to help future
pastors become mentally and physically tough.

Prexy Stuenkel 's job was to teach the Old
Testament in the classroom.  He tried to make
Bible scholars out of his students.

According to one former student, Basketball Coach
Ackmann told one player that he could help the
team more by playing in the band.  He immediately
walked out of the practice and never returned.

I and my roommate were the starting guards on the HS team as seniors.  Our proctors were not fond of us, thinking us to be a couple of wise guys, so they heard us running up the stairs in a loud manner and remanded us to the kind of custody that would cost us playing in a game.  This was not happy news to the coach, who then had us meet with the proctors and Dean Ackmann.  Dean Ackmann indicated that he was most hopeful about the option that would eventuate in his kicking our posteriors through the far wall of the room.   He further instructed the proctors to keep a close watch on us so that he could accomplish that task the next time we did anything out of order.  He then instructed the proctors not to keep two good men from playing ball over a minor infraction.  And off we went.  Truth, justice and the American way.

Dave Benke

[Harvey_Mozolak]

Dave and Dave...

I cared not a bit for either man when I was there... Ralph Weinhold was more the personification of the Gospel and the Law was everywhere... however, I do recall that in the bad days before I left the LCMS, Walter WWWPQR Stuenkel was attacked as a liberal.  I recall meeting him at an Oh District Convention where he was the keynote speaker and during a break I walked up to him and said something to the effect that I had always thought if I was ever close enough to him again, post my being graduated, I would ahhh spit... or something like that distastfully.... BUT I now appologized for such unChristian thoughts and also said how sad it was that he was being thought to be a liberal...  (I assume it was because of how he taught OT 101 in part.....)  That is how bad things were and had then later become and look now I look to the right instead of the left...  enough to make you want to spit....    Harvey Mozolak

[Dave Benke]

Dave and Dave...

I cared not a bit for either man when I was there... Ralph Weinhold was more the personification of the Gospel and the Law was everywhere... however, I do recall that in the bad days before I left the LCMS, Walter WWWPQR Stuenkel was attacked as a liberal.  I recall meeting him at an Oh District Convention where he was the keynote speaker and during a break I walked up to him and said something to the effect that I had always thought if I was ever close enough to him again, post my being graduated, I would ahhh spit... or something like that distastfully.... BUT I now appologized for such unChristian thoughts and also said how sad it was that he was being thought to be a liberal...  (I assume it was because of how he taught OT 101 in part.....)  That is how bad things were and had then later become and look now I look to the right instead of the left...  enough to make you want to spit....    Harvey Mozolak

Ralph Weinhold - wow, great guy, with the bent toward English lit.   Very oddly, Walter Stuenkel did become identified later on as a "liberal."  What in the world.  His zeal for the work of the Church was and remains very important in the vocational decisions of our family.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke

[John_Hannah]

In the LCMS, knowing who is conservative and who is liberal is like a crap game in Las Vegas or Atlantic City. Up now; down in five minutes!

Remember Martin Scharlemann.


Peace, JOHN

[mariemeyer]

Pastor Tibbetts:

What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???

What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 

Sister Marie, in the notes you reference above, I see nothing that leads to a conclusion that 1 Cor. 12:1 refers solely to male siblings.

The note on in "brothers" on page 1901 that says here St. Paul is speaking "specifically for men who led congregations," emphasizing the maleness of the leaders, is not out of line as an interpretation, particularly in an age unwilling to acknowledge distinctions between males and females.  It is not that long ago that many would have simply presumed that was the interpretation.

The note is more restrictive than I would first interpret, but I do not think in terms of "every member a minister" nor "every minister a pastor." But that St. Paul is not automatically speaking of everyone here, as I've been taught to understand, is an interpretation worth pondering. Clearly Paul is speaking of "ministry" here, and I understand that to be more that The Ministry.

Pax, Steven+

I am confused.  On page 1901 the explanation for brothers does acknowledge it is a general term that Paul uses for fellow Christians, male and female Ii is followed with "However,Paul also used the term specifically for men who lead the congregation.  The example given is I Cor. 12:1.

The note on 12:1 directs the reader back to p. 1901 where the text is given as an example of where "brothers" refer specificallyfor men who led the congregation.  (The reasoning is rather circular.)

The note on chap 12-14 claims that congregational leaders are the "spiritual".  Again the reference is to the men who are congregational leaders.

On page 1902 gifts, charismata - are defined as gracious gifts or abilities from God, connected with an office of service in the congregation.  The "gifts" of I Cor. 12: 4-6 are "embodied in works of ministers, the 'spiritual' people."

regarding12:7  the note on each  reads...."each member of the body ("brother" v.1) (Does each member of the body refer to the brothers of v.1?)

The note on manisfestation of the Spirit read "The Spirit works through the brothers."

The confusion continues with the note on 14:26  "brothers" - the reader is again directed to the note on 12:1

Taken as a whole the notes on I Cor. 12-14 send a not so subtle message to women... these passages have a different meaning for you than they do for the "brothers," for the leaders in the congregation.  The spiritual gifts here are qualified.  Repeatedly the notes refer to the "spiritual" in v.1, the male brothers" of the congregation.


As stated yesterday. This text was the subject of Bible Class Sunday. As I sat in class and listened, the pastor interpreted the text in the way that included the entire class, not the two pastors who were part of the class.

Marie

[Dave Benke]

Pastor Tibbetts:

What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???

What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 

Sister Marie, in the notes you reference above, I see nothing that leads to a conclusion that 1 Cor. 12:1 refers solely to male siblings.

The note on in "brothers" on page 1901 that says here St. Paul is speaking "specifically for men who led congregations," emphasizing the maleness of the leaders, is not out of line as an interpretation, particularly in an age unwilling to acknowledge distinctions between males and females.  It is not that long ago that many would have simply presumed that was the interpretation.

The note is more restrictive than I would first interpret, but I do not think in terms of "every member a minister" nor "every minister a pastor." But that St. Paul is not automatically speaking of everyone here, as I've been taught to understand, is an interpretation worth pondering. Clearly Paul is speaking of "ministry" here, and I understand that to be more that The Ministry.

Pax, Steven+

I am confused.  On page 1901 the explanation for brothers does acknowledge it is a general term that Paul uses for fellow Christians, male and female Ii is followed with "However,Paul also used the term specifically for men who lead the congregation.  The example given is I Cor. 12:1.

The note on 12:1 directs the reader back to p. 1901 where the text is given as an example of where "brothers" refer specificallyfor men who led the congregation.  (The reasoning is rather circular.)

The note on chap 12-14 claims that congregational leaders are the "spiritual".  Again the reference is to the men who are congregational leaders.

On page 1902 gifts, charismata - are defined as gracious gifts or abilities from God, connected with an office of service in the congregation.  The "gifts" of I Cor. 12: 4-6 are "embodied in works of ministers, the 'spiritual' people."

regarding12:7  the note on each  reads...."each member of the body ("brother" v.1) (Does each member of the body refer to the brothers of v.1?)

The note on manisfestation of the Spirit read "The Spirit works through the brothers."

The confusion continues with the note on 14:26  "brothers" - the reader is again directed to the note on 12:1

Taken as a whole the notes on I Cor. 12-14 send a not so subtle message to women... these passages have a different meaning for you than they do for the "brothers," for the leaders in the congregation.  The spiritual gifts here are qualified.  Repeatedly the notes refer to the "spiritual" in v.1, the male brothers" of the congregation.


As stated yesterday. This text was the subject of Bible Class Sunday. As I sat in class and listened, the pastor interpreted the text in the way that included the entire class, not the two pastors who were part of the class.

Marie

The other two Pauline passages with regard to the gifts of the Spirit are Romans 12:1-8 and Ephesians 4.  The Ephesians 4 passage is very specific in its inclusive language around baptism (one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all).  I have always been convinced that the only appropriate Lutheran understanding of the gifts of the Spirit in the Body of Christ is to view these gifts as being received by and utilized among the communion of saints, that is, the baptized.  The related passage from Colossians 1 and 2 is also anchored in the reception of the imago dei in Christ through baptism and hence to a life of good and gifted works. 

This gets re-stated Lutheran-ly as the Unio Mystica, the mystical union of the Triune God with the baptized believer.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke

[Dan Fienen]

Has any progress been made by CPH or Amazon in correcting the problem with Kindle Paperwhite and TLSB?
 
Dan

[Jay Michael]

Has any progress been made by CPH or Amazon in correcting the problem with Kindle Paperwhite and TLSB?
 
Dan

Hope this link helps.