The Public Role of the Pastor In The Community

[Donald_Kirchner]

I'm not aware of any other than a bachelor's degree from an accredited institution. My BA is from the University of Minnesota.

[peter_speckhard]

You can have a BA from anywhere. But you can't enter the M.Div program unless you're working toward ordination. It isn't really a purely academic degree like M.A., STM or Ph.D.

[R. T. Fouts]

No BA here, but I do have a BS from Northwest Missouri State.  I like to say that I started with some BS and just kept piling it on.   I found doing my undergraduate work outside of the Concordia system had its advantages.  I just exchanged some of the advantage of having more of a foundation in the languages, for building a foundation in experience that makes worldliness a little less shocking than it would have been having grown up in sheltered suburbia.  I laughed once when one of my seminary classmates tried to defend how "worldly" people are at Concordia schools by pointing out they "even had a gay person there!"  Really?  Shocking! I'm sure it has evolved since the late 90s, though. They may have four or five there now. 

[Charles_Austin]

LCMS87 notes:
The event was televised live nationwide, preempting previously scheduled network programming.  It was available online to view in its entirety after the event, and transcripts continue to be available online today. You're giving far too much credit to Pr. Hendrickson. 

I comment:
Reviewing some materials collected and sent to me over the past few weeks, I think you should give some "credit" to the pastor who compared the Newtown pastor with "a man whose wife had caught him with a prostitute and who offered her an excuse that 'it was OK because before we had sex we each claimed that this had no bearing on any other physical relation that we have, right or wrong, with any other person,'" and who said the pastor did more harm than the gunman who had killed 26 people.
Those words were posted publicly. Do you think merely taking them off one blog means they no longer existed?

Furthermore, the pastor who posted the words comparing the Newtown minister to a man visiting a prostitute said again this past Friday that he stands by those words, and that because he believes the Newtown pastor endangered people's souls, that pastor was bringing "more harm than the bullets of an enraged gunman." Of course, he said that he did not believe Pastor Morris "intended" to do that, but that he did nonetheless.

Pastor Tim Rossow, author of those online, then offline, then online again words, which he reaffirmed and re-posted this past Friday, also wrote, "My words were not intended to make a negative comparison between the gunman and anyone else but simply to point out the eternal fate of souls should not be compromised simply to obtain earthly approval." The first part of that sentence, it seems to me, is absurd, because that is exactly what he did; and the second part suggests that the Newtown pastor (and others in similar situations) act "simply to obtain earthly approval."

It is even more bizarre. Pastor Rossow writes Friday that the newspaper and "everyone else are focusing on a post that we humbly took down," just two or three lines after he posts (on Friday) that he stands by the words. He repeats that affirmation near the close of the Friday blog post, saying only that "they were spoken in the wrong forum and at the wrong time."
So it appears that now he believes it is time to speak those words.
Pastor Rossow writes, "at the outset I ask that people recognize that all the furor is over a post that was taken down." But the furor will now be about the post that he has just put back up there again and fervently reaffirmed. They are on that "steadfast brothers" blog, which, it seems is getting some publicity and even "standing" from the current controversy.
From this outsider's viewpoint, I don't think this is going to help things calm down very much.

[Pastor Ted Crandall]

From this outsider's viewpoint, I don't think... 

Usually the expression "an outsider's point of view" is reserved for one that is impartial. 

 

[Pastor Ted Crandall]

One receives this first professional degree as the entry into full time ministry, which is what the Master of Divinity is.  Thus, with the exception of unique situations leading to an alternate route program, prospective students traditionally enter the M.Div program leading to ordination. 

Let me put on my affiliate seminary professor hat to say, "Yes, that's sort of true on paper, and that's generally the intent of the design of an MDiv degree." But the reality is that in most seminaries, plenty of students enroll in an MDiv program with little intention to be ordained, while others who are thinking about ordination enroll in other programs, at least at the beginning. Someone might enroll in an MDiv program just because the requirements of that program appear to them to be more along their interests. No doubt there are exceptions, but not many seminaries require an avowed intent to seek ordination before admitting someone to an MDiv program.

The seminaries of the LCMS are quite different than the ELCA. One can gain admission to the M.Div. only if the one is preparing for ordained ministry in the LCMS or a sister Synod.

What restrictions do the LCMS seminaries place on which colleges one must use to earns one's Bachelor's degree before entering seminary?

Chaplain (Admiral) Gard can speak with more authority on this, certainly, but I believe there are no restrictions regarding the source of the undergraduate degree.  Pastoral formation ideally (not always) occurs at the seminary, regardless of the foundation.  In my personal case, I entered Fort Wayne essentially a liberal Protestant with two years of undergraduate study at the University of Pennsylvania and a B.A. in psychology from Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut.  "Named for John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, Wesleyan is among the oldest of the originally Methodist institutions of higher education in the United States."  (http://www.wesleyan.edu/about/uhistory.html)

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Crandall writes:
Usually the expression "an outsider's point of view" is reserved for one that is impartial. 

I comment:
Sez who?
But do you have anything to say about my observation? Am I right in saying that the Friday posting will probably cause more problems? Am I right in saying that taking down the original comments (temporarily, it seems) did not mean that they just "went away"? Do you agree that now it is time to make those comparisons and call the pastor and others to task?

[Donald_Kirchner]

Pastor Crandall writes:
Usually the expression "an outsider's point of view" is reserved for one that is impartial. 

I comment:
Sez who?
But do you have anything to say about my observation? Am I right in saying that the Friday posting will probably cause more problems? Am I right in saying that taking down the original comments (temporarily, it seems) did not mean that they just "went away"? Do you agree that now it is time to make those comparisons and call the pastor and others to task?

Furthermore, you seem to have joined in diverting any "apology" by Tim Rossow to a criticism of President Benke, his deletion of a post hereon, what you allege is his intrusion into the Newtown situation, and a lament that you did not copy the entire post that he deleted so that you could now post it on BJS. IOW, participating in the same thing that Rossow and his supporters are now crying about: "He removed the posts. What more do you want? Leave the poor guy alone! Give it a rest!"

Conniving is not helpful, Pr. Crandall, any more than your non-substantive, irrelevant cheap shot that Pr. Austin notes. He's entitled to his opinion on Rossow's public, I apologize, but I stand by what I said, which includes suggesting that Pr. Morris, albeit unintentionally, was Satan at the prayer vigil.

[Daniel L. Gard]

A seminary accredited by the ATS (Association of Theological Schools) and a regional accrediting agency must comply with the requirements of the accrediting agencies.  This is true of both LCMS seminaries and, to my knowledge, all ELCA seminaries. Undergraduate degrees must be from an accredited institution or, in the case of colleges overseas, be evaluated by another agency for equivalency. There is no requirement that the bachelor’s degree be in a particular field. Thus a modern seminary will have a mix of students with degrees from a wide variety of undergraduate institutions and undergraduate majors along with students with pre-theology degrees from Church-related colleges and universities.

Seminaries are allowed to admit a small percentage of students without a completed bachelor’s degree (if I remember correctly it is 10%) to the M.Div. program. Regulations on this also affect the enrollment in individual courses as to how many seats in a course can be used by non-degreed students.

[Daniel L. Gard]

You can have a BA from anywhere. But you can't enter the M.Div program unless you're working toward ordination. It isn't really a purely academic degree like M.A., STM or Ph.D.

Exactly. Students who are interested in studying theology for reasons other than preparation for the pastoral office may enroll in the M.A. program as a first graduate academic degree. Some may go on to earn further academic degrees like the S.T.M. or Ph.D.

The LCMS seminaries also offer a M.A. degree that leads toward becoming a deaconess. This track includes not just the kinds of classes for a purely academic M.A. but the professional classes that prepares a woman for service as a deaconess.

The M.Div. includes requirements as a field-worker and vicar as an actual part of the degree itself. One must not only meet the requirements of classwork but also successfully complete field work and a year long vicarage in order to receive the M.Div. This is somewhat unusual among seminaries and is the reason why our M.Div. is a four year program rather than the more common three years.

[Pastor Ted Crandall]

Pastor Crandall writes:
Usually the expression "an outsider's point of view" is reserved for one that is impartial. 

I comment:
Sez who?
But do you have anything to say about my observation? Am I right in saying that the Friday posting will probably cause more problems? Am I right in saying that taking down the original comments (temporarily, it seems) did not mean that they just "went away"? Do you agree that now it is time to make those comparisons and call the pastor and others to task?

Furthermore, you seem to have joined in diverting any "apology" by Tim Rossow to a criticism of President Benke, his deletion of a post hereon, what you allege is his intrusion into the Newtown situation, and a lament that you did not copy the entire post that he deleted so that you could now post it on BJS. IOW, participating in the same thing that Rossow and his supporters are now crying about: "He removed the posts. What more do you want? Leave the poor guy alone! Give it a rest!"

Conniving is not helpful, Pr. Crandall, any more than your non-substantive, irrelevant cheap shot that Pr. Austin notes. He's entitled to his opinion on Rossow's public, I apologize, but I stand by what I said, which includes suggesting that Pr. Morris, albeit unintentionally, was Satan at the prayer vigil.

I see you still have that "irritability" problem, Don.  I'm telling you, fiber works wonders!   

"...you seem to have joined in diverting..."
"...so that you could now post it on BJS..."
"...Conniving..."
"...your non-substantive, irrelevant cheap shot..."

Is that really the kindest way you can explain my actions? 

I might eventually respond to Rev. Austin's questions, but I'd first have to spend time reading his posts and I tend to consider that poor stewardship. 

[John_Hannah]

Is it not true that LCMS seminarians may go to non-Lutheran seminaries and become colloquized after graduation? That was the question.


Peace, JOHN

[Buckeye Deaconess]

Here is a link to information about LCMS pastoral colloquy:

http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=1106

[swbohler]

Rev. Hannah,

Here is what Ms. Schmidt wrote:
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A young Missouri Synod man who wanted to become a pastor in the LCMS was in the intro to Hebrew class I took at seminary in Austin.  He was very nice and we talked some.  One day he said the oddest thing while talking about his future plans.  He said that he was told (by whoever LCMS person he was talking with) that he could go to either Concordia Seminary in SL or to the Baptist Seminary in Dallas.  He was leaning toward the latter and said around a dozen LCMS men were there training to be pastors in the Missouri Synod.  It didn't make any sense to me, but that's what he said.

Are some of our LCMS pastors trained at Baptist seminaries?
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I understood her to be asking not about colloquy but about going straight from another denomination's seminary to the LCMS roster.  If she was asking about colloquy, then the answer is "of course". 

[pastormesser]

I see you still have that "irritability" problem, Don.  I'm telling you, fiber works wonders!   

"...you seem to have joined in diverting..."
"...so that you could now post it on BJS..."
"...Conniving..."
"...your non-substantive, irrelevant cheap shot..."

Is that really the kindest way you can explain my actions? 

I might eventually respond to Rev. Austin's questions, but I'd first have to spend time reading his posts and I tend to consider that poor stewardship.

Pr. Crandall,

I agree with the point Pr. Kirchner is making, namely that you (and others) shouldn't be copying deleted posts and posting them again (just as whoever it was that sent the deleted post from BJS to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch shouldn't have done that). I would not have known about President Benke's deleted post had it not been posted by others. Decent online etiquette would require, in my opinion, that when someone deletes a post, we let it go, without posting it again or asking for explanations from the person who deleted the post, and certainly without spreading that deleted post to other sites. I also think that, if we had already responded to a post before it was deleted, we should delete our response when that post is deleted. We all may post something that, upon further reflection, we choose to delete for whatever reason (maybe we thought we didn't word things properly or that it was too harsh or we've reconsidered things altogether or whatever), and we should all honor such deletions for what they are - deletions. My $.02, anyway.