Author Topic: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?  (Read 9013 times)

Richard Johnson

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2012, 03:21:54 PM »
In the November "Gather" magazine, the ELCA's Women's magazine there is an article titled "Nothing Shall Be Lost"  by Heidi Neumark  in which the current acronym "LGBTQ" indicates the ELCA's movement toward the "full inclusion" of other sexual minorities not referred to in the ELCA's Sexuality Statement, "Human Sexuality, Gift and Trust".  "Gather" is an official magazine of the ELCA.  The use of LGBTQ here, and in other venues in the ELCA give even the casual observer an indication of the direction the ELCA is trending.

I find it fascinating that the magazine can use the term "LGBTQ" without feeling any need to explain it. I look around at the women in my congregation who participate in WELCA and receive the magazine, and I'd be surprised if half of them have a clue what it means. I wonder if that occurred to the editors?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

readselerttoo

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2012, 03:37:45 PM »
Does not the ELCA statement declare that we support monogamy, faithfulness, and a publicly declared life-long commitment? Would this not be understood as opposing some of the OMG! scenarios people like to yelp into the discussion?

Yes, the social statement says that.  Does the current practice within the ELCA support that statement?  Our language we currently employ seems to say that we are redefining what we mean.  HSGT spoke only of LG in faithful, monogamous and public relationships.  The trend in our corporate language is toward LGBTQ.  The article referred to in the "Gather" magazine also referred to 'sex workers'.  While the ELCA does not support persons becoming sex workers, the article, in part, encourages a change in our attitude toward those sell themselves sexually, and more disturbingly, says nothing about the global industry that lies behind 'sex workers'.

What we say officially as a church seems to not be followed by the words and practices we actually use.


For BTQ the requirements are the same. Their sexual behaviors are meant to be within a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous relationship. What's so confusing about that?

I am not confused at all.   We as a church have not discussed and voted that the BTQ fall under our current social statement.  It is being presented as a fait accompli.  This is not a fearful panic on my part, it is an observation based on public statements of church leaders and publications.

The question still begs an answer:  Where is the boundary regarding sexual behavior?  As long as we define it as monogamous, lifelong and public, does any behavior qualify once we have added it to the growing acronym of sexual minorities?  Asking is neither fearful nor hateful.


It has been a question of boundary-lessness that has given rise to forgetting the story about Cain and Abel.  After he killed his brother, Cain was cursed to walk into directionlessness (read boundary-lessness).  From this perspective in the case of outright murder of one's own family member, one has nowhere to turn to escape the knowledge that a natural order has been destroyed:  the brother-to-brother relationship or sibling order.  The curse is that Cain was no longer responsible to Abel, his brother, ie. before his face because he murdered him.  Now Cain was responsible FOR his brother's life:  Cain had destroyed it.  Similarly, now that the ELCA has opened the door to accept many facets of the natural order called marriage, it is faced with the same boundary-lessness as Cain in that who was murdered was the institution of the ELCA.  (Who killed cock robin?)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 03:52:02 PM by readselerttoo »

George Erdner

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2012, 04:46:29 PM »
Can any explain the difference between the "L's", the "G's", and the "Q's" and regular, ordinary homosexuals?


Why can't people just use the perfectly good word "homosexual", or "homo" if they are too lazy to type the extra 6 letters?








Charles_Austin

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2012, 04:59:22 PM »
"Narrowly" pro-life are those who are in Mr. Hummel's camp, and those who speak like the deaconess, along with those who would restrict access to contraception information.
More broadly pro-life is.... me.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2012, 05:47:32 PM »
The question still begs an answer:  Where is the boundary regarding sexual behavior?  As long as we define it as monogamous, lifelong and public, does any behavior qualify once we have added it to the growing acronym of sexual minorities?  Asking is neither fearful nor hateful.


I have never seen a list of sexual behaviors that divided them between acceptable and unacceptable for a couple in a publicly accountable, life-long monogamous relationship. What has been discussed are relational issues like coerced sexual behaviors, prostitution, sexual abuse.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2012, 05:53:29 PM »
"Narrowly" pro-life are those who are in Mr. Hummel's camp, and those who speak like the deaconess, along with those who would restrict access to contraception information.
More broadly pro-life is.... me.

I think it is very hard to argue that Charles. 

http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=4640.msg278134#msg278134

How can support for contraception possibly be more broadly 'pro-life'?  Unless having children (life) is viewed as a hindrance to the life of the ones who have them, and thus you view maximizing one's own life, (consumption of resources for self rather than offspring, free time, entertainment, pursuit of career, lack of worry, etc...) to maximize existing *life* to such a degree that other lives may be sacrificed?

Maybe your argument is that, only a wanted life is truly a life worth living, and that only if a life can be loved, well fed, and cared for, should it exist?  We cannot do away with the problems of the world by just deciding not to bring new life into it.

Do you assume that people like Matt, the bishops, or the deaconess do not work to defend life in all the other ways which you do?

Honestly, I find it hard to imagine how you can argue that you are 'more broadly pro-life' than those whom God inspires to defend the dignity of human life, from conception to natural death.

Coach-Rev

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2012, 07:29:52 PM »
No, Pastor Kirchner, it is perfectly "logical," but it is your logic, not mine.
You (and others) quake in your Reeboks because you fear some future acceptance of things you dislike even more than same-sex marriage; and you point quavering fingers at "what might happen" if homosexual unions gain further approval.
I - taking, for the moment, that logic - say: "Oh dear! But if we oppose same sex marriage or gay rights, will we not soon be in the 'God Hates Fags' camp, or at least seen as allies to those crazies?"
Q.E.D.

Charles, once again I fail to understand your logic, or lack thereof.  I said nothing of fear, and yet you have turned the entire discussion into one on just that.  Perhaps it is you who are most afraid.

I'll say this once, and this goes for all things political as well as theological.  When Israel enjoyed prosperity, they could not handle it, and fell into socio-political and moral bankruptcy.  They were warned, God withdrew, and their enemies became their punisher.

Just because you or anyone else lays claim to this country being "one nation under God" or by claiming that "God is doing a new thing" in the ELCA does not make it so.

That you don't ever seem to question God's will anywhere, automatically assuming that you are carrying it out in all things, astounds me. 

Coach-Rev

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2012, 07:48:24 PM »
Just as it appears that the idiots in Washington seem to, once again, be unwilling to clean up the mess they made, it was also inevitable that someone would put out this book:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/09/book-compares-obama-to-jesus-christ-and-martin-luther-king/

Lord, have mercy.

Felix Culpepper

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2012, 07:57:24 PM »
"Narrowly" pro-life are those who are in Mr. Hummel's camp, and those who speak like the deaconess, along with those who would restrict access to contraception information.
More broadly pro-life is.... me.

What evidence do you have that the Catholic Church is narrowly pro-life?  I assume you mean that they only care about human life between conception and birth.  That charge is often directed at some who show little concern for poverty, hunger, education for all, world peace, etc...
So again, what evidence do you have that the Catholic Church cares nothing for orphans, the poor, the hungry, for educating poor children, working for world peace, care for the elderly, disabled and infirm.  From what I can see, the Catholic Churches brand of "pro-life extends to a much broader spectrum than yours. 

So, give us your evidence please.

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2012, 09:26:21 PM »
"Narrowly" pro-life are those who are in Mr. Hummel's camp, and those who speak like the deaconess, along with those who would restrict access to contraception information.
More broadly pro-life is.... me.

SNARF!

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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2012, 10:09:36 PM »
"Narrowly" pro-life are those who are in Mr. Hummel's camp, and those who speak like the deaconess, along with those who would restrict access to contraception information.
More broadly pro-life is.... me.

So, "narrow" is anyone with whom you disagree, though what about and why you still do not say.

Very broad-minded, Charles.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 10:30:44 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
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Matt Hummel

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2012, 10:24:10 PM »
"Narrowly" pro-life are those who are in Mr. Hummel's camp, and those who speak like the deaconess, along with those who would restrict access to contraception information.
More broadly pro-life is.... me.

OK let's look at just some of what this "narrowly" Pro-Life person has done.

1) Served on the Board of Directors for a major SMO that works with people with IDs and/or DDs
2) managed a basic needs operation on the Lower Eastern Shore of MD.  We we cared for over 60% of the COunty in which we were located, serving Black, White and Latino (primarily Mexican). We ha a Food share program and an Emergency food pantry.  Between those two we saw  15,000+ people each year
3) Over saw immigration and refugee concerns on the Delmarva peninsula.  Was in the process of liaising with the USCCB anti-trafficking program but that was shut down by the current administration. (I know who is waging the real war on women)
4) Supervise the ministry with persons with disabilities .
5) Supervise prison ministry.
6) Supervise Social concerns ministry (a lot happens between conception and natural death.  We Catholics know that and actually do something about it)
7) Coordinate the anti-death penalty work in the Diocese.  I didn't have time to sulk this week.  I was too busy working with others in keeping Hubert Michaels alive.

So- Chuck- you threw down.  Give me 7 things you have done broadly for the cause of Life.  Keeping people from Big Gulps & trans-fats doesn't count.  I'm guessing the Deaconess has a similar list, and I know the bishops do too.

Oh- and as for restricting information on contraception- as usual, you have it bass ackwards.  I am all for information on contraception being available.  It's the propaganda that the Abortion-Industrial  Complex to which I object.  I maintain that if people really knew what was going on in the insistence that it is perfectly fine for women to ingest a Class I carcinogen for prolonged periods of time not for therapeutic purposes- to heal or control a disease process- but to interrupt the very thing a woman's body was designed to do.  I have been working with the medical community in holding grand rounds on fertility awareness based medicine.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Charles_Austin

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2012, 03:19:17 AM »
Mr. Hummel writes (well, quite a lot actually) and then:
So- Chuck- you threw down.  Give me 7 things you have done broadly for the cause of Life.  Keeping people from Big Gulps & trans-fats doesn't count.  I'm guessing the Deaconess has a similar list, and I know the bishops do too.

I comment:
I threw nothing. Down or up. For heaven's sake, get over yourself. We all have our vocations and I am generally proud of the way I have pursued mine. If you think what you do is the only way to be concerned about life or that everyone must have your pro-life calling, then perhaps you are the smug, self-satisfied egotist I'm trying not to see in your postings.
I haven't fired M-16s or launched any Hellfire missiles at any of our nation's enemies either, but that doesn't make me any less "patriotic" than the men and women in uniform who have done those things.
I've got nothing to do with either boosting or banning Big Gulps, and your intemperate and insulting use of names suggests you are erupting rather than discussing. Ease off.

Mr. Hummel writes:
Oh- and as for restricting information on contraception- as usual, you have it bass ackwards.  I am all for information on contraception being available.
I comment:
Good. I assume that means in public schools, to everyone, including condoms.

Mr. Hummel writes:
It's the propaganda that the Abortion-Industrial  Complex to which I object.  I maintain that if people really knew what was going on in the insistence that it is perfectly fine for women to ingest a Class I carcinogen for prolonged periods of time not for therapeutic purposes- to heal or control a disease process- but to interrupt the very thing a woman's body was designed to do.
I comment:
Ah, the faint aroma of "if she's not a mom, if she doesn't give birth,"
she is not true to her 'calling' as a woman."  I assume you oppose celibacy for men also because that keeps a man's sperm from doing "the very thing" it was "designed to do."

Mr. Hummel writes:
I have been working with the medical community in holding grand rounds on fertility awareness based medicine.
I comment:
And how's that goin'? Do what you feel you have to do. It doesn't bother me. But don't think you're the only gun in the "pro-life" arsenal.

Charles_Austin

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2012, 03:36:09 AM »
P.S. to Mr. Culpepper:
I have great respect for the way the Roman Catholic church has expanded its pro-life concerns to such things as capital punishment. I personally watched the National Conference of Catholic bishops be (reluctantly, I must say) driven to these other issues back in the 1970s by some bishops who might at the time have been considered "liberal". Can you imagine?!!!
Their concern for the poor has brought many Catholics to support legislation considered "liberal" or proposed by the Democrats. Whoo hooo! Good for them.

Mr. Culpepper writes:
So again, what evidence do you have that the Catholic Church cares nothing for orphans, the poor, the hungry, for educating poor children, working for world peace, care for the elderly, disabled and infirm. 
I comment:
Never said they were not involved in those issues. See above. Matter of fact, some Roman Catholics are better on those issues than social conservative Protestants who think it's all about abortion or same-sex marriage and never speak up about militarism, gun control or capital punishment, want to cut funding for public education and call any government aid to medical care "socialized medicine."
And so, once again, with little hope of being understood: This humble correspondent opposes abortion. I believe it is a great tragedy, perhaps even a "great evil," and it is certainly marked by sin. I counsel against it, and make it clear that it is not another form of birth control. But I do not believe that the restrictions that would be put on abortion by most in the "pro-life" camp make for good public policies. It seems clear that a good number of Roman Catholics agree with me.

Charles_Austin

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Re: What Do Same Sex Marriage Advocates Want?
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2012, 03:42:53 AM »
Pastor Cottingham writes:
Just as it appears that the idiots in Washington seem to, once again, be unwilling to clean up the mess they made,....

I comment (yet again):
Those "idiots in Washington" are members of our churches, fellow citizens and brothers and sisters in both faith and nationhood. And if you want to waste your outrage on an apparently self-published book that would deify the president, go ahead. But I think there are better things to do.