Author Topic: The Intersection of Church and State  (Read 1633 times)

Rev. Matthew Uttenreither

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The Intersection of Church and State
« on: September 08, 2012, 12:42:43 PM »
Check out this new program produced by The Lutheran Hour which will debut on the Fox Business Channel on September 30th at 5:00pm Eastern:

http://intersectionofchurchandstate.com/

I guess it will air on local channels throughout the next couple of months.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 11:30:06 PM by Rev. Matthew Uttenreither »

Jeff-MN

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 03:55:51 PM »
is Christ and Him crucified too boring for the Lutheran Hour now?

Norman Teigen

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 08:47:23 AM »
This is an amazing piece of political propaganda and historical distortion that is being peddled by a respectable Lutheran church.

Should individual Christian consciences be bound by such proclamations?

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Jesus said:  Mein Reich ist nicht von dieser Welt.
Norman Teigen

Charles_Austin

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 08:51:14 AM »
Jssus spoke German?

Bergs

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 09:36:19 AM »
I recently read the church newsletter of the little ELCA congregation in south Minneapolis where I was a member for 25 years.  What should a church council be doing?  Shouldn't the church council be primarily interested in equipping the saints to live according to and to spread the Gospel?  The ONLY action reported from the most recent council meeting is a motion to oppose the state referendum on photo id requirements for voting.   

Of course I worked many Saturdays at the emergency food shelf there and routinely asked for photo id and proof of address before distributing a bag of groceries. 

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »
This is an amazing piece of political propaganda and historical distortion that is being peddled by a respectable Lutheran church.


And you know this how?

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2012, 01:56:38 PM »
This is an amazing piece of political propaganda and historical distortion that is being peddled by a respectable Lutheran church.

Should individual Christian consciences be bound by such proclamations?

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Jesus said:  Mein Reich ist nicht von dieser Welt.

Mr. Teigen:

What qualifications do you bring to the table to make such claims?  From where I sit, this list of presenters appear to be very well-versed on matters of church and state, and specifically, how confessional Lutheran theology views this intersection.  Perhaps instead of the usual rhetoric, you might try to back up your claims with facts.  What do you know about this show that the rest of us don't since it hasn't aired yet?  Have you attended a private screening?  Just curious.  That would lend credibility to your argument.

John_Hannah

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 02:25:15 PM »
I agree with the cautions expressed by Messers Teigen and Bergs. We Lutherans above all others should be careful about aligning ourselves too closely with either political party. Our allegiance is not to either of them but to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

mariemeyer

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 03:06:23 PM »
The following tells more about  "The Intersection of Church and State." The issues that concern me are immigration and the adoption of children. I plan to watch the show and listen to the various presentors.  Marie Meyer 

"The public debate centering on issues of church and state has been growing in recent years. The prominence and the potential impact of these issues make their appearance a regular item in headlines. The recent decision of the Health and Human Services Department to require health plans of religious institutions to pay for contraception is only one example. The Supreme Court convenes and decides on these controversial issues with growing regularity. Politicians line up on both sides of the issues, adding to the rancor.

 "The separation of church and state"¯ seems like the easy solution. Both church and state have their unique and separate function. The purpose of the state is to "promote the general welfare"¯ of its citizens on this earth. The purpose of the church is to deal with spiritual issues and truth as people live out their lives in this world, with an eye to the next. Yet the intersection of these two entities is unavoidable; they both seek the improvement of the life of our country"™s citizens. Instead of being a point of controversy, this intersection can and should be an empowering relationship.

 The Intersection of Church and State explores the history of this issue, especially in light of the First Amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"¦."¯ It will explore the surprising fact that every state in colonial times had an established faith. It will examine the origin of Jefferson's description of the church-state relationship as a "high and impregnable wall of separation."¯

 The Intersection of Church and State will trace the history of cooperation between these two groups—in bringing care to the needy, the settlement of refugees, the adoption of children, the service of military chaplains, and others ways. It will also consider how these historical church and state partnerships are jeopardized.

 This groundbreaking program will suggest that a far superior metaphor in describing the church-state relationship is not one using a wall or barrier but, instead, an intersection, which benefits us all.
"

BTW - I recently saw the bumper sticker.     
 
             GOD IS NOT A REPUBLICAN                 In large print

              Neither is He a Democrat                 In small print.

Norman Teigen

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 05:30:40 PM »
Varia - Thoughts on a Sunday

1.  President Harrison originally declared that the LC-MS Concordia plans were not covered by the ACA Mandate.  His interest, therefore, is wider than his own church body.  His actions are reminiscent of church people going on crusade.

2.  The Epistle lesson from my church was Ephesians 6:10-20.  Paul wrote that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."   From this I conclude that the enemies of the church are not necessarily Kathleen Sebelius, the Affordable Care Act, the Democratic Party, or even the President of the United States, Barack Obama.

"Our struggle (Paul said) is not against flesh and blood..." Mein Reich ist nicht von dieser Welt.

3.  The Gospel lesson,(and the sermon text) was  Mark 7:1-8; 14,15, 21-23.  The problem of the Pharisees was that they wanted to tangibilize the intangible.  Religion does not consist of making the opinions of humans and political platforms and human agendas into obligatory actions, nor does the condemnation of human programs  and political platforms and human agendas make a church body faithful to its calling.

4.  I do not possess the secret knowledge that the honorable Ohio Deaconess claims to possess.  I have read (in translation) "Erkenntnis und Propaganda," Signale der Neuen Zeit, 25 ausgewahlte Reden von Dr. Joseph Goebbels (Munich: Zentralverlaqg der NSDAP., NSDAP., 1934), pp. 28-52.  Perhaps if I could read more I could achieve the exalted state of understanding in which she lives.

5.  While it is certain that:  1) the Hyde Amendment has failed   2) SCOTUS has ruled that the ACA is not unconstitutional, it is not certain that: 1) the religious freedom cases will prevail in court, and    2) that the Republican nominee for POTUS will win the election, and  3) the incumbent President will be voted out of office. 

6.  Should the election and the court cases go against those who protest that religious freedoms are being threatened, what might these persons and institutions have to say?

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 07:11:44 PM »
We Lutherans above all others should be careful about aligning ourselves too closely with either political party.

Is this show aligning the LCMS with a particular political party?  Near as I can tell from its web site, it merely intends to do the following:

The Intersection of Church and State will trace the history of cooperation between these two groups—in bringing care to the needy, the settlement of refugees, the adoption of children, the service of military chaplains, and others ways. It will also consider how these historical church and state partnerships are jeopardized.

I have yet to see anything put out from the LCMS on this issue of church and state and the HHS Mandate that endorses any political party.  Have I happened to miss something?

Many LCMS districts passed resolutions in support of the LCMS' public position on this issue, as did the Council of Presidents.  That is pretty important for those of us in the LCMS to remember.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 07:17:18 PM by Buckeye Deaconess »

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 07:39:08 PM »
I do not possess the secret knowledge that the honorable Ohio Deaconess claims to possess.  I have read (in translation) "Erkenntnis und Propaganda," Signale der Neuen Zeit, 25 ausgewahlte Reden von Dr. Joseph Goebbels (Munich: Zentralverlaqg der NSDAP., NSDAP., 1934), pp. 28-52.  Perhaps if I could read more I could achieve the exalted state of understanding in which she lives.

When you see firsthand how helpless, innocent children created in the image of their loving God are killed at the hands of their mothers, abortionists and heartless politicians--all in the name of "choice"--then perhaps you'll achieve the phantom "exalted" state you claim I hold.  Have you witnessed firsthand an ultrasound of a baby at six weeks' gestation?  The primary motivator for my church body's action is the protection of innocent children who would be killed under the HHS mandate, all on the church's dime.

I was once a pretty solid Democrat (the daughter of a Teamster) as well as an outspoken supporter of killing babies in utero.  God changed all of that when he allowed me to experience the death of two of my own helpless yet perfectly-formed infants that the law would allow abortionists to work their craft on.  The exalted state in which you sarcastically claim I live is actually the lowly estate of living under the Cross.  See my post above.  Regardless of your opinion, the overwhelming majority of the LCMS supports the actions of our leadership, as do these other entities.  That's solid enough evidence to me that I'm in good company on this issue.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 07:47:23 PM by Buckeye Deaconess »

Dave Likeness

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 08:14:49 PM »
The 1st Amendment guarantees that Congress
will not make laws prohibiting the free exercise
of religion.

This is not a Republican or Democratic issue.
It is not Lutheran or Roman Catholic issue. It is
an issue that goes to the core of religious freedom
in America.  As American citizens we have the right
to worship in the church of our choice and follow
our religious beliefs.  When these rights are being
attacked, then we have the right to protest.

When the federal government attempts to deny us
our 1st Amendment rights, then it is good for LCMS
President Matthew Harrison and other denominational
leaders to go to Congress and share our concerns
about freedom of religion.

LCMS87

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 08:36:19 PM »
Indeed, and it doesn't matter whether the HHS mandate abridges our freedom of conscience (which for the time being it does not directly do, since the Concordia Health Plan, so far, has been allowed exemption as a grandfathered plan) or merely abridges the freedom of conscience of fellow Christians not of our synod. 

Beyond our obligation to fellow Christians out of love, Martin Niemöller's words indicate clearly why we ought not ignore the abridgment of the rights of others just because, for the time being, we are exempt from that abridgment.

George Erdner

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Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 08:47:21 PM »
If it is good to oppose an evil law, then how can one avoid "taking sides" with those who also oppose that evil law? I'm assuming we're talking about a political system where disputes are settled by voters selecting legislators.