Author Topic: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda  (Read 10130 times)

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2012, 10:54:19 AM »
I wrote a rather long concern wondering why sexual "stuff" gets so much attention over against some other "stuff" about which scripture speaks - such as greed, egotism, etc. - and then I said "I don't get it."

Peter wrote:
True.

I comment:
Must be nice to be a moderator.
So does anyone else have anything other than a put-down word about why Christians so concerned about "sin" pounce like hungry leopards on sins related to sex, and remain silent about these others. Greed and commercialism and the encouragement to "get more," and to "get yours" is, in my not so humble opinion, a bigger threat to the faith and society than the desire of same sex couples to marry. For these are exactly the kind of sins that cause us to leave the widows and orphans without care.
What on earth makes you think Christians who take the traditional Christian positions on sexual matters are silent about greed and materialism? This topic thread is about a California law that has nothing to do with those topics. One difference is that many sexual sins have actual advocates seeking to redefine sin.  Another difference is that being rich is not a sin, and when it comes to greed, it is hard to tell who is the more greedy, those with a lot of money or those who keep grubbing after it and whining that the rich don't give them some of it. Another difference is that taxing the wealthy does nothing about the spiritual sin of greed; it merely feeds the greed and resentment of another set of people. Anoter difference is that there is no single act (there are sex acts) that defines greed. Buying a yacht is not a sin the same way having sex with a prostitute is a sin. Well, I could go on and on but your little anti-Republican rant to which I previously offered a one word response was simply embarrassing to you and the less said about it the better. But if I really want to know, I will offer a rough guess that I preach ballpark three times as often against materialism and a wordly focus on possessions and social climbing as I do on anything related to sex. You wouldn't know that, of course, never having heard me preach. The threads here go back to sex again and again because the largest Lutheran church body is wholesale confused about it and this a Lutheran discussion forum.

True.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

pterandon

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2012, 11:00:05 AM »
If it were a choice as some of you might be implying, why would I choose the more difficult path in my life's journey. This thing is NEVER EVER a CHOICE. It is hard-wired in us what we are.

The 1993 version of the Catholic Catechism (the version before the neocons demanded a re-write from Rome) said, "Homosexuals do not choose their condition. For most of them it is an ordeal."   Again, this was before the neocons demanded and got a less gay-friendly re-write.

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2012, 11:08:27 AM »
If it were a choice as some of you might be implying, why would I choose the more difficult path in my life's journey. This thing is NEVER EVER a CHOICE. It is hard-wired in us what we are.

The 1993 version of the Catholic Catechism (the version before the neocons demanded a re-write from Rome) said, "Homosexuals do not choose their condition. For most of them it is an ordeal."   Again, this was before the neocons demanded and got a less gay-friendly re-write.

I did not realize that Popes John Paul and Benedict were puppets of the evil American neocons, even as far back as 1993 when liberal Democrats controlled the White House and Congress. :o
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 12:12:26 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
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Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2012, 11:10:21 AM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2012, 12:10:52 PM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.
Also, I don't understand why social activists keep pushing their agenda on churches, and when confronted with scriptural references against homosexual acts, complain that they are being singled out. It is gay activism itself which singles out the scriptural prohibition on homosexual relationships, claiming that the Scriptures somehow don't apply to the present generation. I am in a congregation now (I guess it is considered "moderate" by LCMS standards) that does NOT single out homosexual sins, nor sexual sins in general. Sin is sin, and homosexual sins are not singled out as either better or worse than others. This is really refreshing after having been an ELCA parishoner (including congregation council member and council president and VP) from its inception until 2009, and being constantly bombarded with pro-gay propaganda from the ELCA. I feel like I have escaped a spiritual war zone.

It is neither wise nor healthy to ignore Scripture, but Deaconess you ask a question that will never receive a straight answer; you will get pages and pages of circumlocution and post-millenial mush to justify the opposing point of view. But never a straight answer argued directly from Scripture. I grew up in parsonages and attended countless synodical assemblies and assorted synodical events from adolesence to middle age, and am STILL waiting to hear that straightforward argument from scripture.

Kurt
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« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 12:16:00 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

George Erdner

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2012, 10:11:39 PM »
If the latter is our purpose, then a  lack of discussion of greed, exploitation and oppression is a serious defect.  Can we get a good discussion going on whether greed is good or not?  Who wants to defend greed as really OK in God's eyes?  Perhaps someone who is concerned that we have ignored greed can start a thread to discuss it.

Dan

As I was saying, before the upgrade kicked in, what makes certain acts of sin related to sexuality different in terms of their suitability as discussion fodder is that they are the only acts of sin for which there are well-organized, well-funded, and hard-working pressure groups striving to change society's perception of those sins. If ever a group like the ARCUS Foundation were to start throwing money at a campaign to make theft or murder acceptable actions for society, with church bodies changing their teachings to accommodate the new secular point of view, then those acts of sin will similarly become discussion fodder.
 

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2012, 11:03:06 PM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.
Also, I don't understand why social activists keep pushing their agenda on churches, and when confronted with scriptural references against homosexual acts, complain that they are being singled out. It is gay activism itself which singles out the scriptural prohibition on homosexual relationships, claiming that the Scriptures somehow don't apply to the present generation. I am in a congregation now (I guess it is considered "moderate" by LCMS standards) that does NOT single out homosexual sins, nor sexual sins in general. Sin is sin, and homosexual sins are not singled out as either better or worse than others. This is really refreshing after having been an ELCA parishoner (including congregation council member and council president and VP) from its inception until 2009, and being constantly bombarded with pro-gay propaganda from the ELCA. I feel like I have escaped a spiritual war zone.

It is neither wise nor healthy to ignore Scripture, but Deaconess you ask a question that will never receive a straight answer; you will get pages and pages of circumlocution and post-millenial mush to justify the opposing point of view. But never a straight answer argued directly from Scripture. I grew up in parsonages and attended countless synodical assemblies and assorted synodical events from adolesence to middle age, and am STILL waiting to hear that straightforward argument from scripture.

Kurt
"ELCA Exile" since 11/2009

Thank you.

Kim

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2012, 01:37:37 AM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.


The same way that we ignore many other things in scriptures, like eating pork, or forcing a brother to have sex with a dead brother's wife to produce a child for his brother, or killing homosexuals and adulterers or people who break the sabbath rest, or forcing a rapist to marry his victim, or cutting off the hand of a woman if she has grabbed a man's private parts, or wearing clothes made of blended cloth, and the list goes on of biblical rules that we ignore.


Why do you ignore some of these?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Gary Hatcher

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2012, 09:35:01 AM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.


The same way that we ignore many other things in scriptures, like eating pork, or forcing a brother to have sex with a dead brother's wife to produce a child for his brother, or killing homosexuals and adulterers or people who break the sabbath rest, or forcing a rapist to marry his victim, or cutting off the hand of a woman if she has grabbed a man's private parts, or wearing clothes made of blended cloth, and the list goes on of biblical rules that we ignore.


Why do you ignore some of these?
Really? Is this the best you can do?  A first year seminarian might argue like this, but not someone who has 'thousands reading his sermon notes each week.' 
Gary Hatcher STS,
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ReformedCatholic

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2012, 10:40:15 AM »
Actually, I think that Brian answered the question posed by the Deaconess. Countless responses over the years in regard to this subject have offered other "insights". Yet still many of us ponder and pray.
And I suspect it would depend on which seminary the first year student attends to the answers they will receive. ;)
And I have no doubt that Brian's notes are indeed widely read.....how much ends up in Sunday's sermon may be another question. He is provoking and challenging for sure. That is why we prepare for our sermons with Prayer and study and end in prayer again.
pax
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2012, 11:09:07 AM »

Why do you ignore some of these?

We have Jesus and the New Testament.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Marshall_Hahn

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2012, 11:28:23 AM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.


The same way that we ignore many other things in scriptures, like eating pork, or forcing a brother to have sex with a dead brother's wife to produce a child for his brother, or killing homosexuals and adulterers or people who break the sabbath rest, or forcing a rapist to marry his victim, or cutting off the hand of a woman if she has grabbed a man's private parts, or wearing clothes made of blended cloth, and the list goes on of biblical rules that we ignore.


Why do you ignore some of these?
I ignore these items, as Pr. Tibbetts notes, because of the witness of the whole of Scripture.  In particular, there are specific teachings in the New Testament from Jesus and elsewhere "declaring all foods clean" to give one example.  And these things have been pointed out many times over the years on this forum.  But I have a return question.
I assume you ignore all of these items - along with the prohibitions against homosexual behavior.  What things do you not ignore?  And on what basis?  I have never read a coherent explanation for deciding what can be ignored and what cannot by those who use this "shellfish" argument.  It is simply presented as a "gothcha" argument.  Not to lead this whole thread down an unwanted alley, but I seriously do not understand what basis you are using if not looking at the whole of Scripture.  And if that is the basis you are using, then you already have the answer to your question above.

Marshall Hahn

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2012, 11:39:03 AM »
What I find deplorable about this entire thread is how it has devolved, once again, into something it is not.

What I find especially deplorable was the early effort to equate "homosexuality" with "left-handedness."  Seriously??

Quote
Yes, homosexuality comprises only a very small majority of the general population -- anywhere from 5 to 10%. Left-handers are hard wired in their brains to be left-handers and at one time in the not so distant past, it was considered to be "not right" and many parents forced them to become right-handers.

Ok, I guess its my turn to "come out."  Yes, I have been a left handed man since my childhood.  And yes, the discrimination against us lefties has been horrific:  forced to use left-handed scissors that were obviously made by someone who was right handed, since they NEVER worked, and so on.

But the one fundamental difference?  The Bible nowhere mentions left handedness as a sin.  I'm appalled by the shallow attempt to link the two.

Steverem

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2012, 12:11:31 PM »
Left-handers unite!

(Oh, not that it has much to do with the essence of the argument, but 5-10 percent numbers referring to the homosexual population are derived from Kinsey's research, and have been roundly debunked.  His statistical sample was highly skewed, and even then, it identifies those who have had even a fleeting same-sex attraction as part of that 10 percent.  There is still much debate over what the correct number actually is, but this NPR interview with a researcher sympathetic to the GBLT cause places the number at 3.8 percent.  Other impartial observers have put it between one and two percent.  Again, this needn't affect the argument for those supporting gay marriage, but it does seem to claim a constituency that doesn't actually exist.)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2012, 12:11:31 PM »
How does one ignore what Scripture says about the practice of homosexuality?  Just curious.


The same way that we ignore many other things in scriptures, like eating pork, or forcing a brother to have sex with a dead brother's wife to produce a child for his brother, or killing homosexuals and adulterers or people who break the sabbath rest, or forcing a rapist to marry his victim, or cutting off the hand of a woman if she has grabbed a man's private parts, or wearing clothes made of blended cloth, and the list goes on of biblical rules that we ignore.


Why do you ignore some of these?
Really? Is this the best you can do?  A first year seminarian might argue like this, but not someone who has 'thousands reading his sermon notes each week.'


This is a good example of ad hominem, you attack me (the hominem) rather than anything I wrote.


Apparently my question was too difficult for you to try and answer.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]