Author Topic: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda  (Read 10121 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2012, 12:41:00 PM »
But what we often forget to point out is that the civil and religious regulations NEVER applied outside Israel.


There are the seven Noahide Commandments that the rabbis believe are binding on all humankind since they were given to Noah before God's covenant with Abraham and the commandments at Sinai. Maimonides, a 12th century rabbi and philosopher, wrote in his commentary, the Mishneh Torah, that a non-Jew who keeps these laws is a "righteous Gentile" and will have a place in heaven. The seven laws include prohibitions on idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, sexual immorality, and eating living flesh, as well as exhortations for the establishment of courts of justice.


Are the prohibitions of idolatry, blasphemy, eating living flesh religious or moral regulations? Is the establishment of courts of justice a civil or moral regulation?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 05:15:05 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2012, 02:36:36 PM »
If you ever eat pork, you are ignoring/breaking/disregarding/nullifying that command. I'm certain that you have good and valid reasons for ignoring that command, but you are still acting contrary to that biblical command.


It's nice that you, an ordained Lutheran pastor who exegetes the weekily Gospel readings for "thousands" of pastors, are willing to acknowledge that other Lutherans have good and valid reasons for being able to eat pork.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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readselerttoo

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2012, 03:59:00 PM »
But what we often forget to point out is that the civil and religious regulations NEVER applied outside Israel.


There are the seven Noahide Commandments that the rabbis believe are binding on all humankind since they were given to Noah covenant with Abraham and the commandments at Sinai. Maimonides, a 12th century rabbi and philosopher, wrote in his commentary, the Mishneh Torah, that a non-Jew who keeps these laws is a "righteous Gentile" and will have a place in heaven. The seven laws include prohibitions on idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, sexual immorality, and eating living flesh, as well as exhortations for the establishment of courts of justice.


Are the prohibitions of idolatry, blasphemy, eating living flesh religious or moral regulations? Is the establishment of courts of justice a civil or moral regulation?



But the Noahide commands were not addressed to a nation of Israel but to humanity in general.  It is silly to talk about the Israelite theocracy at this point since Abraham and his progeny had not entered the picture.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2012, 05:16:08 PM »
If you ever eat pork, you are ignoring/breaking/disregarding/nullifying that command. I'm certain that you have good and valid reasons for ignoring that command, but you are still acting contrary to that biblical command.


It's nice that you, an ordained Lutheran pastor who exegetes the weekily Gospel readings for "thousands" of pastors, are willing to acknowledge that other Lutherans have good and valid reasons for being able to eat pork.


and ignore = intentionally disregard many other commands from God's Word.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2012, 05:19:47 PM »
But what we often forget to point out is that the civil and religious regulations NEVER applied outside Israel.


There are the seven Noahide Commandments that the rabbis believe are binding on all humankind since they were given to Noah covenant with Abraham and the commandments at Sinai. Maimonides, a 12th century rabbi and philosopher, wrote in his commentary, the Mishneh Torah, that a non-Jew who keeps these laws is a "righteous Gentile" and will have a place in heaven. The seven laws include prohibitions on idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, sexual immorality, and eating living flesh, as well as exhortations for the establishment of courts of justice.


Are the prohibitions of idolatry, blasphemy, eating living flesh religious or moral regulations? Is the establishment of courts of justice a civil or moral regulation?



But the Noahide commands were not addressed to a nation of Israel but to humanity in general.  It is silly to talk about the Israelite theocracy at this point since Abraham and his progeny had not entered the picture.


I think that's what I said by stating that the rabbis believe these seven commands apply to all humanity. This is in opposition to the comment stated in the first quote: "the civil and religious regulations NEVER applied outside Israel."


However, the question, which I also think I raised, can be asked if any of these seven fall under "civil and religious regulations".
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2012, 05:33:07 PM »
But what we often forget to point out is that the civil and religious regulations NEVER applied outside Israel.


There are the seven Noahide Commandments that the rabbis believe are binding on all humankind since they were given to Noah covenant with Abraham and the commandments at Sinai. Maimonides, a 12th century rabbi and philosopher, wrote in his commentary, the Mishneh Torah, that a non-Jew who keeps these laws is a "righteous Gentile" and will have a place in heaven. The seven laws include prohibitions on idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, sexual immorality, and eating living flesh, as well as exhortations for the establishment of courts of justice.


Are the prohibitions of idolatry, blasphemy, eating living flesh religious or moral regulations? Is the establishment of courts of justice a civil or moral regulation?



But the Noahide commands were not addressed to a nation of Israel but to humanity in general.  It is silly to talk about the Israelite theocracy at this point since Abraham and his progeny had not entered the picture.


I think that's what I said by stating that the rabbis believe these seven commands apply to all humanity. This is in opposition to the comment stated in the first quote: "the civil and religious regulations NEVER applied outside Israel."


However, the question, which I also think I raised, can be asked if any of these seven fall under "civil and religious regulations".



My inability to be clear is apparent here.  I want to make a distinction in that I was not referring to any type of rabbinic extrapolation of Genesis 9 reference to prohibitions for general humanity.  I am confining myself to the text of Genesis 9.  I see only a prohibition to  food and to murder:  ] And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.
[22] While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease."
Gen.9

[1]
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.


[2] The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the air, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea; into your hand they are delivered.
[3] Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
[4] Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
[5] For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man's brother I will require the life of man.
[6] Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.
[7] And you, be fruitful and multiply, bring forth abundantly on the earth and multiply in it."


Whatever the rabbis have constructed is not applicable to me as a Christian.  It is confined to the people of Israel.  My being granted entrance into God's promises is confined to the missionary activity of St. Paul to the Gentiles not to the Jewish mission ala James and the Jerusalem community.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2012, 02:49:15 AM »
I want to make a distinction in that I was not referring to any type of rabbinic extrapolation of Genesis 9 reference to prohibitions for general humanity.  I am confining myself to the text of Genesis 9.


The rabbis come up with the seven by looking at all the commands God gives prior to the covenant with Abraham, beginning with Adam, not just what is in Genesis 9. They are named after Noah, rather than Adam, because God's first covenant with humanity occurred with Noah.


I've started meeting with a layman who is quite well versed in Hebrew (and Aramaic) and midrash. He has brought up the seven in our meetings. For my post, I looked them up in the New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, which does not give biblical references for the seven commands. My friend said that the Gentiles who agreed to follow these seven laws (and circumcision is not one of them) were the "god-fearers" we have in the NT. Another source indicated that Gentiles who officially vowed to obey these laws were the "resident aliens" in the holy land.


In The Torah: A Modern Commentary, there is this statement: "Unlike Christianity, Judaism does not deny salvation to those outside of its fold, for, according to Jewish law, all non-Jews who observe the Noahide laws will participate in salvation and in the rewards of the world to come." (p. 71)



Quote

Whatever the rabbis have constructed is not applicable to me as a Christian.  It is confined to the people of Israel.  My being granted entrance into God's promises is confined to the missionary activity of St. Paul to the Gentiles not to the Jewish mission ala James and the Jerusalem community.



Except that the Noahide laws may have been the basis for the ruling by the Jerusalem Council as to what would be required of Gentile converts.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

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Re: Parents' rights and the homosexual agenda
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2012, 11:27:51 AM »
I want to make a distinction in that I was not referring to any type of rabbinic extrapolation of Genesis 9 reference to prohibitions for general humanity.  I am confining myself to the text of Genesis 9.


The rabbis come up with the seven by looking at all the commands God gives prior to the covenant with Abraham, beginning with Adam, not just what is in Genesis 9. They are named after Noah, rather than Adam, because God's first covenant with humanity occurred with Noah.


I've started meeting with a layman who is quite well versed in Hebrew (and Aramaic) and midrash. He has brought up the seven in our meetings. For my post, I looked them up in the New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, which does not give biblical references for the seven commands. My friend said that the Gentiles who agreed to follow these seven laws (and circumcision is not one of them) were the "god-fearers" we have in the NT. Another source indicated that Gentiles who officially vowed to obey these laws were the "resident aliens" in the holy land.


In The Torah: A Modern Commentary, there is this statement: "Unlike Christianity, Judaism does not deny salvation to those outside of its fold, for, according to Jewish law, all non-Jews who observe the Noahide laws will participate in salvation and in the rewards of the world to come." (p. 71)



Quote

Whatever the rabbis have constructed is not applicable to me as a Christian.  It is confined to the people of Israel.  My being granted entrance into God's promises is confined to the missionary activity of St. Paul to the Gentiles not to the Jewish mission ala James and the Jerusalem community.



Except that the Noahide laws may have been the basis for the ruling by the Jerusalem Council as to what would be required of Gentile converts.


To the bold above only:
The writer seems to have omitted any appeal to Romans 9-11 in which there definitely is a sense that Christianity is not confined to a "religion" per se and that the new covenant points to people who without any claim to national identity are called by God into a relationship as God called Abraham and Sarah.  Incidentally, Abraham and Sarah were called by God before circumcision and any identifying mark of national identity could be claimed by them.  The writer seems to be seeing Christianity through the specs of a specific grounded identity which is foreign to the Church's nature, it seems to me.