Author Topic: Abortion and Politics  (Read 76568 times)

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #180 on: October 05, 2012, 05:03:10 PM »
In every context, save for the Commonwealth of Virginia and a small city in Pennsylvania (and maybe there, who knows?) the reference is to assassination and/or terrorism. But no matter. A kerfuffle over a pretentious Latinism is not the worst dust-up in the world today.

Satis Est

  • Guest
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #181 on: October 05, 2012, 11:49:54 PM »
    Julius Caesar was viewed as a tyrant who was subverting the Roman Republic; the state of Virginia adopted this as the motto on its Great Seal in 1776 and presumably was directed at the British, and particularly at George III, who according to the charges leveled against him in the Declaration of Independence had made himself a tyrant.  (And the Great Seal of the Commonwealth of Virginia depicts Virtue brandishing a sword over the prone body of a presumed tyrant.)  And while neither of us would agree with Booth's judgment that Pres. Lincoln had become a tyrant, it is in that vein that he shouted those words. 

   I don't believe for an instant that Pastor Tibbetts is advocating assassination.  But when someone fears that the republican form of government is being subverted in order to uphold legalized murder (infanticide), then perhaps it can be understood why the ancient cry against good governments gone bad would be invoked. 

   Or one can do as you have done, and voice your judgment that such warning cries are "Creepy."  :o
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 03:16:28 AM by Satis Est »

Buckeye Deaconess

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3051
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #182 on: October 06, 2012, 10:55:01 AM »
      I don't believe for an instant that Pastor Tibbetts is advocating assassination.  But when someone fears that the republican form of government is being subverted in order to uphold legalized murder (infanticide), then perhaps it can be understood why the ancient cry against good governments gone bad would be invoked. 

BINGO!

Buckeye Deaconess

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3051
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #183 on: October 06, 2012, 01:27:50 PM »
Many businesses/organizations are taking their cases to court with respect to the HHS mandate.  Contrary to the claim upthread, the battle is far from over.  Hobby Lobby is one of the recent companies to do so.

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/10/05/date-set-for-hobby-lobby-to-battle-obama-hhs-mandate/
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 01:33:18 PM by Buckeye Deaconess »

Norman Teigen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1682
  • I intend to persuade no one.
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #184 on: October 16, 2012, 06:35:35 AM »
I am recommending the following story to the readers of this thread.  I recognize that many will be outraged by the analysis presented because it runs counter to what many here consider to be the absolute, binding truth.  Well, folks, it ain't necessarily so.   

I realize that opening minds on this subject is nearly hopeless, but there is always hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/opinion/paul-ryan-catholic-dissident.html?ref=opinion

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

Dadoo

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3056
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #185 on: October 16, 2012, 08:13:03 AM »
I am recommending the following story to the readers of this thread.  I recognize that many will be outraged by the analysis presented because it runs counter to what many here consider to be the absolute, binding truth.  Well, folks, it ain't necessarily so.   

I realize that opening minds on this subject is nearly hopeless, but there is always hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/opinion/paul-ryan-catholic-dissident.html?ref=opinion

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Norman,

Thank you for the article. Allow me to summarize its main points: 1. Ryan is just as bad a Catholic as Biden and if Biden is on "wafer watch" (exclusion from the sacrament; the phrase "wafer Watch" sounds derogatory BTW - just saying) then Ryan should be also. 2. Roman Catholic Church, aww, bless their hearts, their stand on human life is prophetic and not political (in other words, not practical) and look where it leads them. Well, they have excommunicated one of their own Sisters for saving a poor woman's life by authorizing a life saving abortion. 3. Abortion should just plain be legal, that is the most practical solution. why, look at all the real life possibilities that would not be covered if it weren't totally legal. 4. Don't vote Romney/ Ryan if your Catholic and think it matters in the abortion debate.

I accept all the arguments made in the article though I do not agree with them. I merely wish the author had just come out and said it plainly. It's an option piece after all.

I would counter with this: 1. At its best, politics is about compromise. To go in with an unbending attitude will lead to the imposition of values on those who plainly do not share them. Much of the Obama years to date imposed a liberal vision of life in America on many who reject it, so this cuts both ways. But, winner take all kind of attitudes mark the political process these days to the detriment of the country. A better argument for the author of this article would have been to say: "Catholics: don't have abortions. You know it is wrong. Catholic politicians: remember that we are America and not everyone is Catholic. Use your bully pulpit to make people realize the truth of the Catholic position on the sanctity of life (thank you Mr Ryan) but respect the freedom of those who disagree (thank you Mr Biden). And a shout out and thank you to the RC bishops for being pastoral and not ideological and heavy handed about this (with a few noted exceptions)."

2. the debate that is ignored really is about the beginning of life. That which is conceived is either a human life or it is just tissue inside a womb. If it is the former than abortion ought to be unthinkable, if the latter than it is merely a medical procedure. This country cannot have peace on this issue until this question is solved.

Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

pearson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2241
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #186 on: October 16, 2012, 08:31:29 AM »

2. the debate that is ignored really is about the beginning of life. That which is conceived is either a human life or it is just tissue inside a womb. If it is the former than abortion ought to be unthinkable, if the latter than it is merely a medical procedure. This country cannot have peace on this issue until this question is solved.


I think this is exactly right.  Thank you, Pr. Kruse.  The insight here demonstrates that abortion is now fundamentally a metaphysical issue centered on the meaning of terms like "life" and "person" and "fetus," and not essentially a moral issue.  Once the metaphysical concerns are addressed (if they ever are), the moral questions are pretty simple to resolve.

Tom Pearson

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 20039
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #187 on: October 16, 2012, 08:50:16 AM »

2. the debate that is ignored really is about the beginning of life. That which is conceived is either a human life or it is just tissue inside a womb. If it is the former than abortion ought to be unthinkable, if the latter than it is merely a medical procedure. This country cannot have peace on this issue until this question is solved.


I think this is exactly right.  Thank you, Pr. Kruse.  The insight here demonstrates that abortion is now fundamentally a metaphysical issue centered on the meaning of terms like "life" and "person" and "fetus," and not essentially a moral issue.  Once the metaphysical concerns are addressed (if they ever are), the moral questions are pretty simple to resolve.

Tom Pearson
I've said before to Lutherans for Life and in Touchstone and in this forum: It is no religious intrusion into the domain of the state to insist that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should know what a person is. At issue is whether somebody dies in every abortion. Joe Biden's incoherent mumbling (to his credit he laid off the maniacal grinning when the topic came up) about accepting the Catholic teaching on life while supporting the pro-choice position is simply that-- incoherent.

As for which of them is, in the big picture, the better Catholic, that is a non-issue to me. Nobody votes based on who missed the most days of obligation, prays the rosary regularly, or whatever. And just because the RC church is undeniably correct about the beginning of life and thankfully insistent about it despite being too often a lonely voice against abortion doesn't mean that the entire corpus of RC social teaching is correct or equally important. SNL captured it best when their Biden impersonator described his position as something like "I'm a 'real world' Catholic, the kind who believes what the Church teaches but then ignores it and does whatever he wants."

DeHall

  • Guest
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #188 on: October 16, 2012, 09:10:09 AM »
I found Steven's use of the phrase shouted by John Wilkes Booth after he shot President Lincoln rather creepy.

It's also the state motto of Virginia. I was taught it meant "Get your foot off my neck".....

Norman Teigen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1682
  • I intend to persuade no one.
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #189 on: October 16, 2012, 09:34:35 AM »
Thank you, Pastor Kruse.

 I found an old clipping from the New York Times, June 27, 2004 "The Bishops and the Bible." 

The distinguished Mr. Wills wrote:  "The command not to kill is directed at the killing of persons, and the issue in abortion is this:   When does the fetus become a person?  The answer to that is not given by church teaching.  Even St. Thomas Aquinas, who thought that a soul was infused into the body, could only guess when that infusion took place (and he did not guess at 'fertilization').  St. Augustine confessed an agnosticism about the human status of the fetus.

"Natural reason must use natural tools to deal with this question - philosophy, neurobiology, psychology, medicine.  When is the fetus 'viable,' and viable as what?  Does personality come only with responsibility, with personal communication?  On none of these do the bishops have special expertise.  John Henry Newman said, 'The pope, who comes of Revelation, has no jurisdiction over Nature.'

"The evidence from natural sources of knowledge has been interpreted in various ways by people of good intentions and good information.  If natural law teachings were clear on the matter, a consensus would have been formed by those with natural reason.  The fact that the problem is unsettled by them does not mean that a theological authority can be resorted to. An invalid authority (theology) does not become valid faute mieux."

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

Buckeye Deaconess

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3051
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #190 on: October 16, 2012, 10:02:24 AM »
So Mr. Teigen, at what point in a pregnancy do you believe life actually begins (and the church is obligated to defend an innocent child)?

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #191 on: October 16, 2012, 10:38:59 AM »
It matters little what any of us, as individuals, decide about the beginning of life. What matters, as far as the law is concerned, what the state determines is the best policy to serve the public good. This will not be in line with the views of some people. Some of us oppose capital punishment; but grant that the state has a right to impose that penalty.
The recent dust-up about the Republican vice presidential candidate, who would allow abortion in certain cases, underscores the fact that even those who agree on the "moment of conception," can disagree on whether abortion is always and in every place wrong.
I am among those who believe that abortion is "wrong," and that abortion as "birth control" is a great evil; yet one would not put me in the camp of most of those who call themselves "pro-life."

Scott6

  • Guest
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #192 on: October 16, 2012, 10:41:00 AM »
It matters little what any of us, as individuals, decide about the beginning of life.

True.  What matters ultimately is what God thinks of the matter and of our tearing apart His gift of life.

There is cause to tremble here...

Coach-Rev

  • Guest
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #193 on: October 16, 2012, 10:44:21 AM »
I am recommending the following story to the readers of this thread.  I recognize that many will be outraged by the analysis presented because it runs counter to what many here consider to be the absolute, binding truth.  Well, folks, it ain't necessarily so.  

I realize that opening minds on this subject is nearly hopeless, but there is always hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/opinion/paul-ryan-catholic-dissident.html?ref=opinion

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Careful there, Mr. Teigen,

With such pessimism and thinly veiled insults as these, you are starting to take after Charles.  So you are partisan.  Stick to your views rather than insult those who are opposite you.  Argue Your position, and present a challenge against theirs, rather than take potshots at them.    ::)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45272
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #194 on: October 16, 2012, 12:37:37 PM »
So Mr. Teigen, at what point in a pregnancy do you believe life actually begins (and the church is obligated to defend an innocent child)?


Note: medically there's a difference between conception (when a sperm fertilizes an egg) and pregnancy (when the zygote implants itself in the uterus). "Life" is another confusing word, because sperms and eggs are alive even if conception doesn't take place.


A question the church has wondered over the centuries is when does the soul enter into the life of the fetus -- and they have come up with different answers.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]