Author Topic: Abortion and Politics  (Read 70934 times)

Norman Teigen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #165 on: October 05, 2012, 07:07:45 AM »
Dear Pastor, I think that your use of the word 'tyrannis' and 'tyrant' is excessive.  I think that the point to be made here  is that well-meaning and sincere Christian people would have their views on this secular topic become binding in matters of faith and life.   The inclusion of secular matters into  an expression of Church doctrine and practice is a very serious matter. 

Tyranny?  Really, Pastor.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #166 on: October 05, 2012, 08:09:59 AM »
I found Steven's use of the phrase shouted by John Wilkes Booth after he shot President Lincoln rather creepy.

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #167 on: October 05, 2012, 08:37:49 AM »
On the matter of abortion and politics, demanding laws against abortion is exactly parallel to demanding laws against theft. It is not parallel to Blue laws, blasphemy laws, or imposing some sort of state religion, but of recognizing people as people. As for freedom of religion, it is silly to think that my rights have been violated if my employer doesn't purchase condoms for me, but it is not silly to think that forcing the employers to do that against their own conscience... well, binds consciences to a secular matter, namely, that you must be okay with artificial birth control.

Matt Hummel

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #168 on: October 05, 2012, 09:58:40 AM »
So what is the emoticon for heavy sigh?

OK- so Norman is full of glee that the current regime is really getting the boot in against the anti-christ I mean the Roman Catholic Church, and Charles and the other (As Lenin would call them) useful idiots don't see the danger.

Of course the current regime is going after the RCC first.  Beat down us, and who else is going to do do anything?  At this point, of course the ELCA as a national entity pretty much endorses everything the current regime does.  I certainly am unaware of any condemnations.  But at some point somewhere the Evangelical Lutheran Synod and the ELCA and its mainline sisters are going to fall afoul of them and then it will be your turn.  The fact that neither denomination has any real influence nationally is prety much what spares you.

As to Steven's quoting the motto of the Commonwealth of Virginia, inscribed on my class ring from the University, and the motto of the seat of the Diocese for whom I work, what are you saying?  Are Allentown (chock full o' Lutherans!) and Virginia are creepy?  I think not.  That a crazed racist missappropriated the motto is to be lamented.  But the idea behind it is just.  In this country, every time we cast a vote, we can, if our minds are strong and our wills are too, turn over incipient tyranny. 

And demanding laws against abortion is actually exactly parallel to demanding laws against murder.

And one final thing.  As to the "War aganist women" 

Which side is it that wants to pump women full of Class I carcinogens?
Which side has said, "freedom of choice means freedom to abort because the child is female?"
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:24:35 AM by Prolife Professional »
Matt Hummel


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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #169 on: October 05, 2012, 10:28:14 AM »
Dear Pastor, I think that your use of the word 'tyrannis' and 'tyrant' is excessive.  I think that the point to be made here  is that well-meaning and sincere Christian people would have their views on this secular topic become binding in matters of faith and life.   The inclusion of secular matters into  an expression of Church doctrine and practice is a very serious matter. 

Tyranny?  Really, Pastor.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

At one time in this great nation we dehumanized an entire class of people and justified denying their 'right to freedom'.  Was that a secular issue?  We now dehumanize another class of human beings and deny them their God given 'right to life'.  Is it really a secular issue Norman?  Is eugenics? Is it a secular issue when people flock here to 'sex select' and 'have their boys' becuase it is illegal to do so in most other parts of the world?

  http://www.worldmag.com/2012/09/boy_crazy

I wonder, what are the issues which cries out for justice that you would consider to be anything other than 'secular issues'.  The Church must ever and always proclaim the truth, popular or not, in season and out, and in every cultural context it finds itself.  One of those truths is that life is for God alone to give and take, and that it is a grave sin for us to take life, and that it a particular grave sin to take innocent life in the womb.  We may be hated for telling the truth, and we may end up like John the Baptist when he told the truth (was it a secular issue?), but we have no choice.

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #170 on: October 05, 2012, 11:32:10 AM »
Thank you for these great responses, gentlemen.  Care for the defenseless in the womb is what motivates the church to action in these instances.

Satis Est

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #171 on: October 05, 2012, 11:39:27 AM »
The Lutheran Confessions teach,  Dear Pastor Tibbetts, Non igitur commiscendoe sunt potestates ecclesiastica et civilis:  ecclesiastica suum mandatum habet Evangelii docendi et administrandi Sacramenta.  Non irrumpat in alienum officium, non transferat regna mundi, non abroget leges magistratum, non tollat legitimam obedientum, non impediat judicia de ullis civilibus ordinationibus aut contractibus, non proescribat leges magistrabibus de forma rei publicoe; sicut dicit Christus (John xviii. 36): Regnum meum non est de noc mundo,' Item  (Luke xii.14): 'Quis constituit me judicem aut divisorem super vos?'  Et Paul ait (Phil. iii.20): 'Nostra politia in coelis est.'  2 Cor. x.4: 'Arma militia nostrae non sunt carnalia, sed potentia Dei, ad destruendas cogitationes,' etc.  Ad hunc modum discernunt nostri utriusque potestatis officia, et jubent utramque honore officere et agnoscere, utramque Dei donum et beneficium esse.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical LutheranSynod

For those of us without ready access to the Triglota, would you grace us with a citation so we who are more fluent in English could look this up?

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #172 on: October 05, 2012, 12:24:06 PM »
The Lutheran Confessions teach,  Dear Pastor Tibbetts, Non igitur commiscendoe sunt potestates ecclesiastica et civilis:  ecclesiastica suum mandatum habet Evangelii docendi et administrandi Sacramenta.  Non irrumpat in alienum officium, non transferat regna mundi, non abroget leges magistratum, non tollat legitimam obedientum, non impediat judicia de ullis civilibus ordinationibus aut contractibus, non proescribat leges magistrabibus de forma rei publicoe; sicut dicit Christus (John xviii. 36): Regnum meum non est de noc mundo,' Item  (Luke xii.14): 'Quis constituit me judicem aut divisorem super vos?'  Et Paul ait (Phil. iii.20): 'Nostra politia in coelis est.'  2 Cor. x.4: 'Arma militia nostrae non sunt carnalia, sed potentia Dei, ad destruendas cogitationes,' etc.  Ad hunc modum discernunt nostri utriusque potestatis officia, et jubent utramque honore officere et agnoscere, utramque Dei donum et beneficium esse.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical LutheranSynod

For those of us without ready access to the Triglota, would you grace us with a citation so we who are more fluent in English could look this up?

No comment, apart from saying that I find this request kinda' funny coming from someone whose screen name is "Statis Est."  ;D

Satis Est

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #173 on: October 05, 2012, 01:03:51 PM »
The Lutheran Confessions teach,  Dear Pastor Tibbetts, Non igitur commiscendoe sunt potestates ecclesiastica et civilis:  ecclesiastica suum mandatum habet Evangelii docendi et administrandi Sacramenta.  Non irrumpat in alienum officium, non transferat regna mundi, non abroget leges magistratum, non tollat legitimam obedientum, non impediat judicia de ullis civilibus ordinationibus aut contractibus, non proescribat leges magistrabibus de forma rei publicoe; sicut dicit Christus (John xviii. 36): Regnum meum non est de noc mundo,' Item  (Luke xii.14): 'Quis constituit me judicem aut divisorem super vos?'  Et Paul ait (Phil. iii.20): 'Nostra politia in coelis est.'  2 Cor. x.4: 'Arma militia nostrae non sunt carnalia, sed potentia Dei, ad destruendas cogitationes,' etc.  Ad hunc modum discernunt nostri utriusque potestatis officia, et jubent utramque honore officere et agnoscere, utramque Dei donum et beneficium esse.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical LutheranSynod

For those of us without ready access to the Triglota, would you grace us with a citation so we who are more fluent in English could look this up?

No comment, apart from saying that I find this request kinda' funny coming from someone whose screen name is "Statis Est."  ;D

    My Triglota's at the office, and this is my day off.  It would be easier to read the passage in context if Mr. Teigen would just give the citation, as my English BofC is at home.  My Latin is passable these days, but admittedly rusty when it comes to translating larger chunks.  I felt it was a reasonable request, particularly as there are a number on this site with no command of Latin at all. 

   Of course, if Mr. Teigen is more interested in playing "one-upmanship" games, seeing Pr. Tibbetts' three word quotation with his own paragraph-length quote, then I can only refer us all to Paul's words in Corinthians regarding refraining from speaking in tongues if there is no translation available, lest the body not be built up but further divided. 

   But I am glad to provide humor of a non-political sort in this crazy season.   8) 

Steverem

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #174 on: October 05, 2012, 01:30:47 PM »
The Lutheran Confessions teach,  Dear Pastor Tibbetts, Non igitur commiscendoe sunt potestates ecclesiastica et civilis:  ecclesiastica suum mandatum habet Evangelii docendi et administrandi Sacramenta.  Non irrumpat in alienum officium, non transferat regna mundi, non abroget leges magistratum, non tollat legitimam obedientum, non impediat judicia de ullis civilibus ordinationibus aut contractibus, non proescribat leges magistrabibus de forma rei publicoe; sicut dicit Christus (John xviii. 36): Regnum meum non est de noc mundo,' Item  (Luke xii.14): 'Quis constituit me judicem aut divisorem super vos?'  Et Paul ait (Phil. iii.20): 'Nostra politia in coelis est.'  2 Cor. x.4: 'Arma militia nostrae non sunt carnalia, sed potentia Dei, ad destruendas cogitationes,' etc.  Ad hunc modum discernunt nostri utriusque potestatis officia, et jubent utramque honore officere et agnoscere, utramque Dei donum et beneficium esse.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical LutheranSynod

For those of us without ready access to the Triglota, would you grace us with a citation so we who are more fluent in English could look this up?

No comment, apart from saying that I find this request kinda' funny coming from someone whose screen name is "Statis Est."  ;D

    My Triglota's at the office, and this is my day off.  It would be easier to read the passage in context if Mr. Teigen would just give the citation, as my English BofC is at home.  My Latin is passable these days, but admittedly rusty when it comes to translating larger chunks.  I felt it was a reasonable request, particularly as there are a number on this site with no command of Latin at all. 

   Of course, if Mr. Teigen is more interested in playing "one-upmanship" games, seeing Pr. Tibbetts' three word quotation with his own paragraph-length quote, then I can only refer us all to Paul's words in Corinthians regarding refraining from speaking in tongues if there is no translation available, lest the body not be built up but further divided. 

   But I am glad to provide humor of a non-political sort in this crazy season.   8)

Considering I had to double-check to make sure I knew what "Statis Est" meant, I am in full agreement.

Satis Est

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #175 on: October 05, 2012, 02:52:09 PM »

Considering I had to double-check to make sure I knew what "Statis Est" meant, I am in full agreement.

   So to be helpful myself, "Satis Est" means "It is enough."  It comes from the Augsburg Confession.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #176 on: October 05, 2012, 04:00:19 PM »
I found Steven's use of the phrase shouted by John Wilkes Booth after he shot President Lincoln rather creepy.

Oh, give me a break. Is it creepy that the same phrase is the state motto of Virginia? Or of the city of Allentown, PA? Oh, I see someone beat me to it.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #177 on: October 05, 2012, 04:17:34 PM »
Yes, it's creepy. Those places should change their mottos. It's dim-witted anyway. To what does the sic refer? We know what the reference was as Booth leaped on to the stage of Ford's theater.

Steven Tibbetts

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Thus Always to Tyrants!
« Reply #178 on: October 05, 2012, 04:53:17 PM »
Charles, an appropriate response may have been, "Et tu, Brute?" for the saying (see the subject for an English translation) is first attributed to Marcus Junius Brutus the Younger regarding the assassination of Julius Caesar.

Mr. Tiegen's quote is the fourth paragraph (according to the Triglotta) of the Augustana, Art. XXVIII, which he offers denuded of any context.  How, for instance, to we translate the confession of princes into a republic?

Steven+
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 04:56:15 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #179 on: October 05, 2012, 04:53:52 PM »
Yes, it's creepy. Those places should change their mottos. It's dim-witted anyway. To what does the sic refer? We know what the reference was as Booth leaped on to the stage of Ford's theater.


Shakespeare, I believe, from Julius Caesar. Out of the mouth of Brutus? ??? A classic of English Literature. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.


Lou


(I see Steven has given the fuller reference)