Abortion and Politics

[Steven Tibbetts]

Steven writes:
Since holding hands can be a form of sexual intimacy...

I chide:
Don't be intentionally dense. We are not talking about martinis and caviar in the dining car of the 20th Century Limited. We speak of that noble means of both pleasure and transportation entering the tunnel full speed and whistle blowing.

Given the use of words on this forum, Charles, and the uses of sexuality in our society, I don't think I'm being dense at all.

Pax, Steven
Who'll match your 20th Century Limited, and raise you a Southwest Chief and the Daly City line on BART.

[Donald_Kirchner]

rather clever for you, Peter. But as usual it pushes the metaphor too far.

Thanks. But is was your metaphor. Perhaps for clarity's sake I should have specified that the train was somewhere in Minnesota.

Nope, can't get from Mankato to Duluth via passenger train. But there is the North Shore Scenic Railroad from Duluth to Two Harbors for that lovely sidetrip to Gooseberry Falls. No tunnels, however.

http://www.northshorescenicrailroad.org/Home/history.asp

Beware, Rev. Austin. "Don't Go Chasing Waterfalls."

[Coach-Rev]

Is there anything more annoying than listening with someone who whines like a little old lady if someone posts something sexually explicit in here instead of using a euphemism, and yet who acts like a character from the Beavis and Butthead TV cartoon if someone does use a euphemism, demanding to know what the euphemism is referring to? Such hypocrisy!

heh heh, he said "sex."  Heh heh. 

[Norman Teigen]

I thought that the perceptive and well read participants in this forum would find this piece from this morning's New York Times to be of interest.

I have felt for some time that the argument that the health care ruling constituted an assault on religious liberty to be a bogus argument.  Sadly, in my opinion,  many good Lutherans have joined into this almost unending chorus of fear mongering.  The President of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod unwittingly allied himself with an opportunistic Republican politician in a Washington congressional hearing.  The Indiana seminary of the same synod likened this leader and this appearance  to Martin Luther at Worms in 1521.  The Lutheran Hour tapped into the frenzy to fund a special on the Fox Business Network.  There was no end to this sort of thing.  Many conservative Lutherans were swept along, some, a few of us, spoke up.   

Now, a ruling by Judge Carol Jackson, from St. Louis coincidentally has put the issue into proper perspective.   The Times editorial states it well:  " The 1993 statute [the Religious Freedom Restoration Act] 'is not a means to force one's religious practices upon others' and 'does not protect against the slight burden on religious exercise that arises when one's money circuitously flows to support the conduct of other free-exercise-wielding individuals who hold religious beliefs that differ from one's own.' "

The war is over.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/opinion/contraception-and-religious-liberty.html?ref=opinion

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

[Charles_Austin]

The "war," Mr. Teigen, never began. But as you note, there are many whose agendas are served by saying that it exists.
And for those, I do not think that an editorial in The New York Times will convince them of their error, or - if they know they are wrong (and some do) - dissuade them from the fear-mongering tactic.

[Buckeye Deaconess]

The funny thing is, Mr. Teigen, there is far more sweeping support among Lutherans for taking a stand against the HHS Mandate than your little old post on here would have people believe.  If you think the war is over, do a little digging in the Scriptures today about the great deceiver and father of lies.  That should jar you back to reality.  This war won't end until Christ comes again.

[Norman Teigen]

You would impose a burden on one's conscience that is not supportable. 

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

[Michael Slusser]

Buried toward the end of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch story on Judge Jackson's ruling is this:
Although there are several exemptions in the law, O’Brien’s company does not qualify. It has 87 employees (companies with fewer than 50 need not provide health insurance) and is not defined as a “religious” employer. Its existing health plan does cover contraception, something the company has said was inadvertently included several years ago, contrary to past practice and its intentions. (emphasis added)
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/judge-dismisses-st-louis-suit-challenging-health-care-law-s/article_23181cac-0c1b-11e2-b7a3-001a4bcf6878.html

Is it principle? Or is it politics? Surely there will be clearer cases of principled objection coming.

Peace,
Michael

[Steven Tibbetts]

You would impose a burden on one's conscience that is not supportable. 

Once again, Mr. Teigen, it is "our" government that is imposing such a burden.  That you personally (and the New York Times editorially) have no objection to that burden does not mean that it does not exist.

Sic semper tyrannis!

Steven+

[GoCubsGo]

I think that the "fat lady" won't be warming up for some time.  Several organizations have pending lawsuits.  What is interesting is that the Obama administration has shifted the language regarding religious freedom.  According to them freedom is freedom in "teaching, practice, worship, and observance."  Note that it does not include freedom to exercise or assert one's relgion in the public square.

Also interesting is that the administration has offered a great volume of expemptions to the mandate on financial grounds but offers no exemption on relgious grounds.  If the mandate survives the election and it's aftermath I will be very interested to see the Supreme Court's rulings on the number of lawsuits pending.

[Buckeye Deaconess]

I think that the "fat lady" won't be warming up for some time.  Several organizations have pending lawsuits. 

Totally agreed.  I suspect more than "several" have pending lawsuits; I just read of another business, Hobby Lobby, pursuing legal remedies in this regard.  Apparently only some of us are in touch with the reality of the situation . . . the war is hardly over, it's just beginning.  Of course, November could bring a quick end to it. 

[Norman Teigen]

The Lutheran Confessions teach,  Dear Pastor Tibbetts, Non igitur commiscendoe sunt potestates ecclesiastica et civilis:  ecclesiastica suum mandatum habet Evangelii docendi et administrandi Sacramenta.  Non irrumpat in alienum officium, non transferat regna mundi, non abroget leges magistratum, non tollat legitimam obedientum, non impediat judicia de ullis civilibus ordinationibus aut contractibus, non proescribat leges magistrabibus de forma rei publicoe; sicut dicit Christus (John xviii. 36): Regnum meum non est de noc mundo,' Item  (Luke xii.14): 'Quis constituit me judicem aut divisorem super vos?'  Et Paul ait (Phil. iii.20): 'Nostra politia in coelis est.'  2 Cor. x.4: 'Arma militia nostrae non sunt carnalia, sed potentia Dei, ad destruendas cogitationes,' etc.  Ad hunc modum discernunt nostri utriusque potestatis officia, et jubent utramque honore officere et agnoscere, utramque Dei donum et beneficium esse.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical LutheranSynod

[Coach-Rev]

hmmmm, so do you know what you just said?

[Buckeye Deaconess]

hmmmm, so do you know what you just said?

    My sentiments exactly.

[Steven Tibbetts]

Exegeting the Confessio Augustana to defend tyrants was first discredited by the Lutherans pastors of Magdeburg in 1550, Mr. Tiegen.