Author Topic: Abortion and Politics  (Read 74190 times)

Chuck

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2012, 02:55:21 PM »
Gloria Steinem, a vocal leader of the feminist
movement, said, "Marriage is a jail cell and women
need to get out of jail and assert their freedom
and independence."

The "Pill" gave women their independence and
in the process weakened the foundation of
marriage.  In 1970, 11 percent of children were
born to unwed mothers.  In 2008, 41 percent of
children were born to unwed mothers.

Jerry Pournelle reminds his readers today, "Arthur C. Clarke predicted in Childhood’s End [1953] that discovery of reliable means of preventing pregnancy and of determining paternity would bring about a cultural revolution, and he was entirely right, but even he didn’t predict that contraception means provided by taxpayers would become an absolute right, and anything less than that was a war on women."
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2012, 02:55:58 PM »
Gloria Steinem, a vocal leader of the feminist
movement, said, "Marriage is a jail cell and women
need to get out of jail and assert their freedom
and independence."

The "Pill" gave women their independence and
in the process weakened the foundation of
marriage.  In 1970, 11 percent of children were
born to unwed mothers.  In 2008, 41 percent of
children were born to unwed mothers.


Children born to unwed mothers has nothing to do with abortion. If you remember right, Jesus was conceived in an unwed mother.


The last two baptisms I had were to children of unwed parents. At least the fathers were part of the service. With my previous unwed parents baptism, the father was nowhere to be seen - and has had almost no contact with his daughter. In contrast to that, a couple of young friends were married when their children were born, but then the fathers decided they didn't want children and took off with another woman.


While being married increases the odds of a stable home life, it's no guarantee of it; and being unmarried (not having the state paper-work) does not mean that the couple will not stay together for the rest of their lives.

Mary was not an unwed mother!  She was betrothed to her husband Joseph.  She was wife to him in every way except that which leads to children.  And Joseph was husband to her in every way except that which leads to children.  I certainly hope you were attempting some humor, but if not, what's the matter with you that you make such a disrespectful comment about the mother of God?  Please!


Was Mary married to Joseph when she became pregnant? That is the only question my statement raises.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

LCMS87

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2012, 03:14:27 PM »
Gloria Steinem, a vocal leader of the feminist
movement, said, "Marriage is a jail cell and women
need to get out of jail and assert their freedom
and independence."

The "Pill" gave women their independence and
in the process weakened the foundation of
marriage.  In 1970, 11 percent of children were
born to unwed mothers.  In 2008, 41 percent of
children were born to unwed mothers.


Children born to unwed mothers has nothing to do with abortion. If you remember right, Jesus was conceived in an unwed mother.


The last two baptisms I had were to children of unwed parents. At least the fathers were part of the service. With my previous unwed parents baptism, the father was nowhere to be seen - and has had almost no contact with his daughter. In contrast to that, a couple of young friends were married when their children were born, but then the fathers decided they didn't want children and took off with another woman.


While being married increases the odds of a stable home life, it's no guarantee of it; and being unmarried (not having the state paper-work) does not mean that the couple will not stay together for the rest of their lives.

Mary was not an unwed mother!  She was betrothed to her husband Joseph.  She was wife to him in every way except that which leads to children.  And Joseph was husband to her in every way except that which leads to children.  I certainly hope you were attempting some humor, but if not, what's the matter with you that you make such a disrespectful comment about the mother of God?  Please!


Was Mary married to Joseph when she became pregnant? That is the only question my statement raises.

Actually there's more than that involved in your statement:  "Jesus was conceived in an unwed mother." 

In fact, Jesus was conceived in an unwed virgin.  Mary was not a mother prior to the conception of Jesus.  That, of course, changed at the moment of conception, when she became the mother of God. 

She was, however, betrothed when she conceived, which is more than just the faint shadow we see in today's practice of engagement to be married. 

Of course the other issue your statement seems to suggest is that a woman becomes a mother when she becomes pregnant, not merely when the child is born.  That's a truth many of us who are pro-life have been asserting for decades, though it has not been embraced by those who elevate choice as the greatest good.  I'm glad to see that you recognize this truth.   

George Erdner

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2012, 03:40:08 PM »
I'm sorry, but that fails best construction.  I doubt Planned Parenthood sees abortions as a good thing to work toward even though they do not see them as a bad thing.

That's like saying oncologists want to get patients hooked on smoking so they can get lung cancer treatment out of them later.

Mike

That's an apples to oranges comparison. Oncologists are individual people. Planned Parenthood is an organization. Generally speaking, individual health care workers are motivated by personal reasons, usually altruistic. That's a broad, general statement, and there are plenty of exceptions, but overall, I think it's reasonably accurate. Generally speaking, institutions dedicated to health care services are motivated by obligations to shareholders and/or paid staff. The same disclaimers apply, but so does the assertion that my observation is reasonably accurate.

Aren't you the one who complains about people nitpicking?

Fine. It's like the American Cancer Society pushing smoking so that have a reason to continue and thrive.

Better?  If anything, this makes the contrast even stronger.

Mike

I'm also the one who complains about invalid metaphors and other comparisons.
 
I think comparing individuals to organizations is larger than a mere nit. I'd also note that the American Cancer Society does not have a history of encouraging any activities that cause cancer, while Planned Parenthood does have a long history of getting involved in all aspects of reproduction issues. So, your revised comparison would hold water in theory except for the fact that it doesn't hold water in reality.
 

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2012, 05:48:45 PM »
Teaching people about birth control is a way to prevent abortions.

And how's that idea actually working?

Pretty well actually. Most of the people I know have gotten pregnant when they wanted to, and avoided pregnancies when they didn't want to -- including my wife and I; my brothers; my nephews.

How many people do you know have had contraceptives fail and then sought an abortion because of the unwanted pregnancy?

The one abortion that I know of there were no contraceptives involved and there was some misinformation about pregnancy - you can't get pregnant the first time. The use of contraceptives and better sex education would have prevented a pregnancy and an abortion.

Wow.  I really should save this for re-posting the next time someone here accuses a (sexuality) Traditionalist of living in an "Ozzie and Harriet world" or pastoring from some pristine ecclesiastical tower.

Despite your opening declaration, your anecdotes demonstrate your avoidance of my question.

To answer the question you carefully avoided, amongst those whom I have held dear, I know for certain of four abortions that being taught about birth control did not prevent.  Among them was someone I would have been proud to introduce to you as my 23-year-old son.*  This doesn't count the abortions I don't know about, whether they were procured by others I have held dear or others with whom I am acquianted, that abortion statistics suggest are not an insignificant number.  Even in your world.

Christe eleison, Steven+
* For anyone wondering, no, he wouldn't have shared my genes, but he would have been my son.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2012, 06:15:13 PM »
I know for certain of four abortions that being taught about birth control did not prevent.


Being "taught about birth control" is not at all the same thing as properly using birth control. Are you saying that they were properly using the best method of birth control and they failed or that they had just attended classes about different contraceptives?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2012, 11:33:49 PM »

Being "taught about birth control" is not at all the same thing as properly using birth control. Are you saying that they were properly using the best method of birth control and they failed or that they had just attended classes about different contraceptives?

I will remind you of how this train of thought began, Brian. 

It is difficult to dialog when you insist upon riding a train of your own imagination.  Alas, it is also typical.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2012, 03:00:18 AM »

Being "taught about birth control" is not at all the same thing as properly using birth control. Are you saying that they were properly using the best method of birth control and they failed or that they had just attended classes about different contraceptives?

I will remind you of how this train of thought began, Brian. 

It is difficult to dialog when you insist upon riding a train of your own imagination.  Alas, it is also typical.


While Charles used "teaching about birth control," I did not. It's not a dialogue when you quote my post, but are really responding to what Charles has written.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2012, 01:46:39 PM »

While Charles used "teaching about birth control," I did not. It's not a dialogue when you quote my post, but are really responding to what Charles has written.

Excuse me. Who changed the subject?

Fraternally, Steven+
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Matt Hummel

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A Question for the "Just Teach Them More" people
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2012, 09:31:00 PM »
ACOG (The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists  just released a statement that they are endorsing the use of IUDs as the preferred method of contraception for sexually active teens.

Given the fact that IUDs work by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg, it is a de facto abortifacient.  Just wondering what those who are so keen to get kids contracepting have to say about that.  Does it make a difference to you at all? [This is a serious, non-rhetorical question.]
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 09:41:14 PM by Prolife Professional »
Matt Hummel


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Norman Teigen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2012, 08:53:58 AM »
That seems to be a stretch.  I don't think that very many people would agree with that.  Abortifacient seems to be a buzz word and should probably not be used in discourse.
Norman Teigen

Norman Teigen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2012, 09:01:00 AM »
I found this on a source Medicinenet.com

Abortifacient: A medication or substance that causes pregnancy to end prematurely
Source: MedicineNet
Plan B
...the process of ovulation. It may also interfere with fertilization or implantation. It is not effective once implantation has begun. It is not an abortifacient. Common side effects include nausea,
Source: MedicineNet
Fire, St. Anthony's
...contract. The ergotamines have been much used (and been very useful) for the treatment of migraine. They have also been used (and misused) as abortifacients (agents of abortion). In excess,
Source: MedicineNet
Ergotism
...to contract. They have been much used and been very useful for the treatment of migraine. They have also been used and misused as abortifacients (agents of abortion). In excess, however,
Source: MedicineNet
Norman Teigen

Norman Teigen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2012, 09:05:01 AM »
It seems to me that if there has been  no fertilization, then there is no abortion.   

Might others agree that the term 'abortifacient' has been much misused in the long discussion of the Affordable Care Act?   I suggest that in the discussion abortifacient is a term that has been misapplied, misused, and used to stir up faithful Christians on a political crusade.

Norman Teigen, Layman
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I have just recently been authorized by the ELS to list myself as an official spokesman for the  little synod.
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Steverem

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2012, 09:13:01 AM »

It seems to me that if there has been  no fertilization, then there is no abortion.   


The quote to which you're objecting says, "Given the fact that IUDs work by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. . . ."  If the egg is fertilized, pregnancy has begun, and any steps taken to end that process are in essence abortion.  Abortifacient is indeed the correct term for such a procedure.  It's not a "buzz word" - it is what it is.

Norman Teigen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2012, 09:26:23 AM »
I am not a scientist.  I defer to others who know more about science and biology than I do.   
Norman Teigen