Author Topic: Abortion and Politics  (Read 74188 times)

Matt Hummel

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2012, 09:58:48 AM »
Well- Peter beat me to it.  But the point is the data show that even if the use of contraception prevents an abortion over here, it leads to multiple abortions over there.  So if there is a net increase in abortions, are you saying tha is a good thing?  And the PP business model is set up to get get young woman on contraception early, because they know the earleir they get them on contraception, the greater the likelihood they will get at least one, if not more, abortions out of them.

I'm sorry, but that fails best construction.  I doubt Planned Parenthood sees abortions as a good thing to work toward even though they do not see them as a bad thing.

That's like saying oncologists want to get patients hooked on smoking so they can get lung cancer treatment out of them later.

Mike

Mike-

Watch the documentary Blood Money and listen to a woman who left PP describing this business model.  Talk to folks who have left the abortion-industrial complex. 

Oncologists want to kill cancer.  Abortionists want to kill babies.  If those of you who persist in crying "peace, peace!" where there is no peace actually listened to the pro-abortion zealots, you might be surprised at the level of ideological commitment they have to the slaughter of innocents.

I am old enough to remember the start of this slaughter, and the statement, "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!"  I would change that to, "Since [ideological] Feminists get pregnant, abortion IS a sacrament."

Matt Hummel


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Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2012, 10:10:43 AM »
Mike:

Planned Parenthood is an abortion mill and has a profit motive, pure and simple.  I've linked previously to documents which show that they're chomping at the bit to get their hands on insurance dollars now given the HHS mandate.  I've had multiple firsthand experiences dealing with PP.  It's all about the $.

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2012, 10:17:28 AM »
Mike:

Planned Parenthood is an abortion mill and has a profit motive, pure and simple.  I've linked previously to documents which show that they're chomping at the bit to get their hands on insurance dollars now given the HHS mandate.  I've had multiple firsthand experiences dealing with PP.  It's all about the $.

OK, I believe you two even though part of me still does not want to do so. 

I guess when I do hang out with liberals they must still be fairly moderate wine-and-brie ones who paint this as a regrettable choice that should be left to a woman.

Considering how fiery my conversations with them are, I doubt any relationship with a true liberal would last long.

Mike

George Erdner

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2012, 10:20:58 AM »
Well- Peter beat me to it.  But the point is the data show that even if the use of contraception prevents an abortion over here, it leads to multiple abortions over there.  So if there is a net increase in abortions, are you saying tha is a good thing?  And the PP business model is set up to get get young woman on contraception early, because they know the earleir they get them on contraception, the greater the likelihood they will get at least one, if not more, abortions out of them.

I'm sorry, but that fails best construction.  I doubt Planned Parenthood sees abortions as a good thing to work toward even though they do not see them as a bad thing.

That's like saying oncologists want to get patients hooked on smoking so they can get lung cancer treatment out of them later.

Mike

That's an apples to oranges comparison. Oncologists are individual people. Planned Parenthood is an organization. Generally speaking, individual health care workers are motivated by personal reasons, usually altruistic. That's a broad, general statement, and there are plenty of exceptions, but overall, I think it's reasonably accurate. Generally speaking, institutions dedicated to health care services are motivated by obligations to shareholders and/or paid staff. The same disclaimers apply, but so does the assertion that my observation is reasonably accurate.
 
Mike:

Planned Parenthood is an abortion mill and has a profit motive, pure and simple.  I've linked previously to documents which show that they're chomping at the bit to get their hands on insurance dollars now given the HHS mandate.  I've had multiple firsthand experiences dealing with PP.  It's all about the $.

OK, I believe you two even though part of me still does not want to do so. 

I guess when I do hang out with liberals they must still be fairly moderate wine-and-brie ones who paint this as a regrettable choice that should be left to a woman.

Considering how fiery my conversations with them are, I doubt any relationship with a true liberal would last long.

Mike

And that's another example of confusing individuals' opinions and motivations with institutions' opinions and motivations, not to mention the assertions of lock-step, group-think on the part of people in a certain self-selected group.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 10:23:44 AM by George Erdner »

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2012, 10:26:25 AM »
I'm sorry, but that fails best construction.  I doubt Planned Parenthood sees abortions as a good thing to work toward even though they do not see them as a bad thing.

That's like saying oncologists want to get patients hooked on smoking so they can get lung cancer treatment out of them later.

Mike

That's an apples to oranges comparison. Oncologists are individual people. Planned Parenthood is an organization. Generally speaking, individual health care workers are motivated by personal reasons, usually altruistic. That's a broad, general statement, and there are plenty of exceptions, but overall, I think it's reasonably accurate. Generally speaking, institutions dedicated to health care services are motivated by obligations to shareholders and/or paid staff. The same disclaimers apply, but so does the assertion that my observation is reasonably accurate.

Aren't you the one who complains about people nitpicking?

Fine. It's like the American Cancer Society pushing smoking so that have a reason to continue and thrive.

Better?  If anything, this makes the contrast even stronger.

Mike

Matt Hummel

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2012, 10:27:51 AM »
I am in the postion of the oncologist trying to eradicate a cancer.

As for PP qua organization- if they did not receive $$$ from committed ideologues and/or duped individuals or yours and my tax dollars, then they would fail.  But underlying their actions is not an economic incentive.  Look at their founding mothers like Margaret Sanger and know what they really want.  And as an organization, they are the aggregate of the individuals who have some pretty extreme views.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2012, 10:27:57 AM »
Teaching people about birth control is a way to prevent abortions.

And how's that idea actually working?
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Matt Hummel

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2012, 10:33:46 AM »
Teaching people about birth control is a way to prevent abortions.

And how's that idea actually working?

Steve-

It's working just fine!  PP is making money hand over fist and they get those extra abortions.

They get to come to your childrens' schools and teach them all sorts of fun things without any input from you.  They cover the statutory rape of underaged girls.  They encourage the violation of federal law with the transport of minors across state lines.

They could borrow a motto from some SpecOp units- "Death is our business and business is GOOD!"

Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2012, 10:37:16 AM »
If knowledge about contraception prevents ONE abortion, wouldn't that be good? Or are there hidden agendas in you "pro -life " people?

You can get off your moral high horse, Charles.  Is preventing one abortion good?  Yes, it is.  The problem is that you have nothing to offer about the other 3200+ that will be, uh, performed today because the "knowledge" of contraception wasn't properly applied.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2012, 12:09:16 PM »
Teaching people about birth control is a way to prevent abortions.

And how's that idea actually working?


Pretty well actually. Most of the people I know have gotten pregnant when they wanted to, and avoided pregnancies when they didn't want to -- including my wife and I; my brothers; my nephews.


How many people do you know have had contraceptives fail and then sought an abortion because of the unwanted pregnancy?


The one abortion that I know of there were no contraceptives involved and there was some misinformation about pregnancy - you can't get pregnant the first time. The use of contraceptives and better sex education would have prevented a pregnancy and an abortion.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2012, 12:21:46 PM »
Teaching people about birth control is a way to prevent abortions.

And how's that idea actually working?


Pretty well actually. Most of the people I know have gotten pregnant when they wanted to, and avoided pregnancies when they didn't want to -- including my wife and I; my brothers; my nephews.


How many people do you know have had contraceptives fail and then sought an abortion because of the unwanted pregnancy?


The one abortion that I know of there were no contraceptives involved and there was some misinformation about pregnancy - you can't get pregnant the first time. The use of contraceptives and better sex education would have prevented a pregnancy and an abortion.

Since the "sexual revolution", and society's wholesale adoption of artificial contraception, abortion has increased, as has STDs.  The positive causal relationship is a scientific fact.  You might consider reading something that will challenge and broaden your views on this

  http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Naturel-What-Good-Marriage/dp/1931018588
  http://www.amazon.com/Adam-Eve-After-Pill-Revolution/dp/1586176277
  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/17/human-costs-of-sexual-liberation/

Quoting from the WT review of "Adam and Eve and The Pill:

“No single event since Eve took the apple has been as consequential for relations between the sexes as the arrival of modern contraception,” writes Mrs. Eberstadt. Great applause greeted the pill’s 50th anniversary in 2010, demonstrating the shift from the caution of early 20th century social observers to the full embrace of the technological progress that facilitated the sexual revolution. Oral contraceptives are heralded without reservation as the solution to social problems such as poverty and inequality between the sexes.

In a series of essays, most of which were published in earlier form in First Things and Policy Review, Mrs. Eberstadt challenges this rosy picture, arguing that the sexual revolution has proved disastrous for both sexes. She also contends that the burden of the sexual revolution has been borne by the weakest members of society, women and children, even as it strengthens the predators.

Read more: BOOK REVIEW: 'Adam and Eve After the Pill' - Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/17/human-costs-of-sexual-liberation/#ixzz25nkeUDVB

Dave Likeness

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »
Gloria Steinem, a vocal leader of the feminist
movement, said, "Marriage is a jail cell and women
need to get out of jail and assert their freedom
and independence."

The "Pill" gave women their independence and
in the process weakened the foundation of
marriage.  In 1970, 11 percent of children were
born to unwed mothers.  In 2008, 41 percent of
children were born to unwed mothers.

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2012, 01:23:14 PM »
Speaking of abortion and money . . .

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/09/07/abortion-clinics-shocking-sign-good-women-have-abortions/

Yeah, greed and death of the innocent . . . what church wants to get behind that?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2012, 02:24:26 PM »
Gloria Steinem, a vocal leader of the feminist
movement, said, "Marriage is a jail cell and women
need to get out of jail and assert their freedom
and independence."

The "Pill" gave women their independence and
in the process weakened the foundation of
marriage.  In 1970, 11 percent of children were
born to unwed mothers.  In 2008, 41 percent of
children were born to unwed mothers.


Children born to unwed mothers has nothing to do with abortion. If you remember right, Jesus was conceived in an unwed mother.


The last two baptisms I had were to children of unwed parents. At least the fathers were part of the service. With my previous unwed parents baptism, the father was nowhere to be seen - and has had almost no contact with his daughter. In contrast to that, a couple of young friends were married when their children were born, but then the fathers decided they didn't want children and took off with another woman.


While being married increases the odds of a stable home life, it's no guarantee of it; and being unmarried (not having the state paper-work) does not mean that the couple will not stay together for the rest of their lives.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2012, 02:48:23 PM »
Gloria Steinem, a vocal leader of the feminist
movement, said, "Marriage is a jail cell and women
need to get out of jail and assert their freedom
and independence."

The "Pill" gave women their independence and
in the process weakened the foundation of
marriage.  In 1970, 11 percent of children were
born to unwed mothers.  In 2008, 41 percent of
children were born to unwed mothers.


Children born to unwed mothers has nothing to do with abortion. If you remember right, Jesus was conceived in an unwed mother.


The last two baptisms I had were to children of unwed parents. At least the fathers were part of the service. With my previous unwed parents baptism, the father was nowhere to be seen - and has had almost no contact with his daughter. In contrast to that, a couple of young friends were married when their children were born, but then the fathers decided they didn't want children and took off with another woman.


While being married increases the odds of a stable home life, it's no guarantee of it; and being unmarried (not having the state paper-work) does not mean that the couple will not stay together for the rest of their lives.

Mary was not an unwed mother!  She was betrothed to her husband Joseph.  She was wife to him in every way except that which leads to children.  And Joseph was husband to her in every way except that which leads to children.  I certainly hope you were attempting some humor, but if not, what's the matter with you that you make such a disrespectful comment about the mother of God?  Please!

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.