Author Topic: Abortion and Politics  (Read 72036 times)

RogerMartim

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Abortion and Politics
« on: August 27, 2012, 07:49:24 PM »
I know that it is impossible to separate the issue of abortion from politics but I dearly wish it could be.

I am as pro-life as I can be, but I simply can't abide by the ignorance that is displayed by some politicians on this issue.

Of course, I am referring to the recent remarks made by Congressman Todd Akin from Missouri in which he said that a woman's body shuts down during a "legitimate" rape and her chances of becoming pregnant is minimized. (For the record, the pregnancy rate among women who are raped is the same as that of consensual coitus.)

Some might say that this is a deluded remark by one person, but unfortunately there are many who have expressed themselves in very uncharitable ways and these are used to garner votes.

I would not want Todd Akin to speak for me if he were running for senator in my state. If he can say something as stupid as that, in what other areas of life might he say or do that would impact on me and others which could be subversive? (A judge in Texas suggested that there will be a civil war if Obama is re-elected again. While perhaps not connected to the issue that I am talking about here, it is this same over-heated rhetoric by politicians that is further splitting us as a country.)

Of the pro-choicers, their arguments are distressing too but not any less than those of the pro-lifers. Both ends of the spectrum in this divide use emotional arguments and tactics which makes me want to say that it's time to take abortion out of politics. Roe v. Wade is not going to go away and the current SCOTUS will not touch it with a 10-foot pole.

I know I am being naive but the current modus operandi is not working and it is further dividing us as a people of these United States. We need to find areas of agreement rather than passing off anathemas every which way.

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 09:31:18 PM »
Please note the continuation of statement.  He went on to say that while rape must be punished whenever it occurs, that does not mean the child so conceived should be punished with death.  Not all that stupid really.
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 09:40:17 PM »
Also note that his remarks were in the context of discussing a rape/incest exception to a general prohibition of abortion and in the immediate context that if such were the only exception there might well be many women falsely alleging "rape" in order to obtain an abortion.

Then he said.....
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 09:43:02 PM by Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS »
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Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 09:46:59 PM »
Nice comments Revs. Culled and Shelley.  I viewed the video on KTVI and didn't find his entire remarks to be that objectionable.  Rep. Akin has the temerity to want rapists punished.  Good for him!

My mom was right all those years ago, "Jeremy, two wrongs don't make a right."

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Paul O Malley

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 09:55:19 PM »
Both ends of the spectrum in this divide use emotional arguments and tactics which makes me want to say that it's time to take abortion out of politics. Roe v. Wade is not going to go away and the current SCOTUS will not touch it with a 10-foot pole.

I would suggest part of the problem was just that, thinking that that the issue could be removed from politics.  Justice Blackmun may well have thought that he would achieve that by finding a constitutional right to abortion.  But as a consequence of his opinion and the Supreme Court's decision politicians could now pander to their bases without any need to work with the other side to draft legislation relating to the issue. 

It also strikes me that the consequences of Roe v. Wade have some interesting parallels to the Dred Scott decision of a century earlier in terms of polarizing the country.
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 10:07:45 PM »
It also strikes me that the consequences of Roe v. Wade have some interesting parallels o the Dred Scott decision of a century earlier in terms of polarizing the country....
...as well as depersonalizing and objectifying the most vulnerable of the country's inhabitants.
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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 10:08:31 PM »
Both ends of the spectrum in this divide use emotional arguments and tactics which makes me want to say that it's time to take abortion out of politics. Roe v. Wade is not going to go away and the current SCOTUS will not touch it with a 10-foot pole.

I would suggest part of the problem was just that, thinking that that the issue could be removed from politics.  Justice Blackmun may well have thought that he would achieve that by finding a constitutional right to abortion.  But as a consequence of his opinion and the Supreme Court's decision politicians could now pander to their bases without any need to work with the other side to draft legislation relating to the issue. 

It also strikes me that the consequences of Roe v. Wade have some interesting parallels to the Dred Scott decision of a century earlier in terms of polarizing the country.

Part of the problem may also be the involvement of politics in law.  As I see it, abortion is one of those areas where the law could and should speak clearly and simply: Protect life.  Unfortunately, there are constituencies which have interests that would be curtailed if that principle were carried out that clearly.  For example, the idea that a woman has the right to determine the future of the unborn child.  The idea of choice is deeply ingrained as an inherent right.  Now that this 'right' has been embraced by a significant sector of the public, it becomes a political issue.  Justice can no longer be blindfolded.  It is forced to look out and see how people react to a given law.  We also believe in trading certain 'rights' for other 'rights.'  Not all are given the 'right' to life.  Some must surrender it to protect the 'right' of others to choose. 
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RogerMartim

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 10:37:11 PM »
That's the problem with this whole issue.

Congressman Akin prefaced his observation with "legitimate rape" and that a woman's body shuts down to avoid pregnancy. That just doesn't happen. Congressman Akin's further observation that a rapist should be punished isn't an unreasonable statement but it got lost BIG TIME by his initial statements. So I am not sure why some of you are even taking him seriously. Heck, almost the whole Republican establishment wanted him out of the picture afterwards.

To be sure, there are some women who take advantage of a sexual indiscretion and call it rape, but that's not the issue. Rape is a very real issue for ALL victims of it and Congressman Akin did nothing but to marginalize them. A true rape victim doesn't want to hear some politician come forth and hear the word "legitimate."

We as Lutherans have a responsibility to truth. We should be correcting Congressman Akin as to his irresponsible statements and not defending his ignorance or who knows, he was doing it for political gain that he had hoped to garner against his opponent in the Senate race.

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 10:56:59 PM »
To be sure, there are some women who take advantage of a sexual indiscretion and call it rape, but that's not the issue.

It is very much part of the issue, particularly if one of the few exceptions to a prohibtion of abortion would be for rape.

If false accusation were not a serious problem it would not be one of the Ten Commandments.

Moses faced that in his personal life.
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RogerMartim

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2012, 11:27:44 PM »
So, what you are saying essentially Pastor Shelley is that it is a woman's responsibility to prove that she had been raped in order not to break the 8th Commandment. In some cases the woman is at fault for bearing false witness. None of us would deny that. But let's not make light of this: Most rape victims are truly rape victims.

Women have had to face this distrust throughout human history in front of police, investigators, judges, etc. The burden of proof should be on the side of the perpetrator and not the woman. The truth comes out somehow if a woman is lying.

Rape victims are not regarded highly in Islamic countries; even the Mormon church in the US teaches that a woman did not fight off hard enough and so the blame isn't on him but on her.

Again, I say that there are some cases where a woman accuses a man of rape under pretenses, but for goodness sakes, in the large majority of cases the woman is truly a victim.

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2012, 11:31:29 PM »
We as Lutherans do have a responsibility to the truth.  Truth is abortion is murder.  Truth is the rape exception is a farce.  The rape exception means that there should be no exception for abortions- any time, any reason.  Hard cases make bad law.

And. has anyone else noticed that it is no longer a discussion about the life of the mother?  It's now using the language of the health of the mother.  Not a small difference.

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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 11:37:47 PM »
What I am saying is that; partly out of 30 years in emergency services/law enforcement, partly out of taking seriously what our Confessions say about sin and untruthfulness:  I absolutely refuse to accept the axiom postulated by various feminist/liberal organizations that "victims would never lie about something like that". 

People lie.  Desperate people lie even more frequently.  And a person desperate to obtain that which would be denied without being an alleged crime victim will say whatever it takes, no matter who else may be hurt.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:45:18 PM by Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS »
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 11:40:31 PM »
And. has anyone else noticed that it is no longer a discussion about the life of the mother?  It's now using the language of the health of the mother.  Not a small difference.

Jeremy

Aye, it is more about the quality of life of the mother or the mental health of the mother....very difficult to objectify, measured only by the "soft sciences".

Where else have we heard this in the past decade?
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2012, 11:54:48 PM »
Being accused of rape effectively ends a man's life. If he is convicted, then even if he eventually gets out of jail he wears the permanent scarlet letter of "registered sex offender" for the rest of his life. What this means is that rape accusations are as serious as rape. To say that women would never lie about rape is as absurd as to say men would never rape, as though somehow women were morally above such sin. And the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction from the days when women's accusations were routinely doubted that often a man can't recover even if he is acquitted. The woman having an affair who gets pregnant and now has to explain the pregnancy to her husband has a good reason to claim she was raped, as does the pregnant teenager facing her parents; she's totally innocent and desering of sympathy if she was raped, but mortifyingly guilty in a can't-look-dad-in-the-eye kind of way if she was consenting. The jilted lover also has a human motive for getting back at the man who hurt her. 

In any event, abortion solves absolutely nothing in the case of rape, and the heinous crime of the father does not determine whether the child is a human being or not.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:57:02 PM by peter_speckhard »

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2012, 01:23:47 AM »

Of course, I am referring to the recent remarks made by Congressman Todd Akin from Missouri in which he said that a woman's body shuts down during a "legitimate" rape and her chances of becoming pregnant is minimized.

Our society's minions of death have successfully sucked you into the same Red Herring that Congressman Akin fell hook, line, and sinker for.  They will say and do anything to avoid serious conversation on the 1.2 million abortions committed annually in this nation.  Instead they have us focussing on the "difficult" cases of the 12,000 (according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which has a vested interest in reporting as high a figure as possible) performed annually on female victims of rape who, in addition to the trauma of being raped, will also bear the trauma of having killed their child. 

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