Author Topic: Abortion and Politics  (Read 72113 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #300 on: November 03, 2012, 09:59:20 AM »
The deaconess writes:
You seem to fail to understand that the educated Christian person reads about ideas through the lens of Scripture and determines whether they align.

I comment:
Deaconess, can you possibly understand, or begin to understand that your so-called "lens of scripture" is a phony construct? Scripture has never, ever, in the history of the Church, led everyone to precisely the same understanding of everything under the sun.
It is juvenile, not to mention fundamentalist, to say that anyone and everyone who looks through scripture comes to the same conclusion about everything.
Your LCMS confreres here - or at least some of them - are willing to admit that those of us in the ELCA are not minions of Satan or that our souls are lost forever. Can you do that?
Furthermore, every idea, not even every idea pertaining to health care or abortion, is not to be evaluated solely by your so-called imaginary "lens of scripture." Scripture has no word on whether government has to be federal, constitutional, representative, monarchial (though it seems to lean that way), socialist (another possible leaning), or anarchist. Scripture has no word on insurance (which Lutherans at one time opposed) or Medicare (although biblical directions about care for the needy might apply.)
Mr. Teigen offers a view point here and see what ensues. You accuse him of being an "uneducated Christian." Is it any wonder that some of us think the atmosphere here is toxic?


Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #301 on: November 03, 2012, 10:05:18 AM »
Is it any wonder that some of us think the atmosphere here is toxic?

Not at all.  You again proved why by completely mischaracterizing my comments as you so often do.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #302 on: November 03, 2012, 11:35:54 AM »
Then explain how I have read you wrong, deaconess.

Editor's note: I modified this post to remove unnecessary insults.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 01:00:41 PM by peter_speckhard »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #303 on: November 03, 2012, 12:08:02 PM »
There is an interesting series of letters in today's Times re Friedman's opinion piece.    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/opinion/on-labels-what-does-it-mean-to-be-pro-life.html

Informed people are willing to read about ideas that may not fit their predetermined modes of thought.  It is part of being an educated person.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

You seem to fail to understand that the educated Christian person reads about ideas through the lens of Scripture and determines whether they align.


And throughout history very well-education Christians looking through "the lens of Scripture" have come to different views about many, many different things. The plethora of denominations that we now have is a clear illustration that this "lens" does not always offer clarity.


I've seen this posted on Facebook recently.


"If you don't want tax dollars helping the sick and poor, then it's time to stop saying you want a government based on Christian values." John Fugelsang. That is what many see when looking through "the lens of Scripture."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Matt Hummel

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #304 on: November 03, 2012, 12:46:24 PM »
There is an interesting series of letters in today's Times re Friedman's opinion piece.    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/opinion/on-labels-what-does-it-mean-to-be-pro-life.html

Informed people are willing to read about ideas that may not fit their predetermined modes of thought.  It is part of being an educated person.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical L,utheran Synod

Norman- I read with interest the letters in response.  Some of them I agreed with. Some obviously are enthralled by the Abortion--Industrial Complex. Not sure of your point. 50+ million dead. Nothing in our history remotely compares to these numbers. But you r:ite in support of a man who thinks depriving people of a Big Gulp  and violating what ( actually in the Bill of Rights (2nd Amendment)  is pro-life. Wow.
Matt Hummel


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Dan Fienen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #305 on: November 03, 2012, 01:58:24 PM »
Interesting, forbidding people to drink large sugary drinks is applauded for being prolife, telling people/not to kill the unborn and not to have sex is they don't want a baby is to be scorned!

Dan
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #306 on: November 03, 2012, 02:52:42 PM »

I comment:
Deaconess, can you possibly understand, or begin to understand that your so-called "lens of scripture" is a phony construct?


Just because you disagree with how Sister Kim uses or focusses through a "lens of scripture" does not make it "a phony construct."

You also falsely assume (apparently contra Pr. Stoffregen) that everyone looking through a particular lens will see exactly the same thing.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #307 on: November 03, 2012, 03:18:03 PM »
I've seen this posted on Facebook recently.

"If you don't want tax dollars helping the sick and poor, then it's time to stop saying you want a government based on Christian values." John Fugelsang. That is what many see when looking through "the lens of Scripture."

I have no idea who John Fugelsang is, what sort of authority he is, or whether he is a deep or shallow thinker. His quote, however, is unware of such things as subsidiarity, distinctions of the various estates, the differences between "society" and the various levels of civil "government" and the things which fall under their purview or responsibility, the difference between stewardship and taxation, and other such matters that one can find in both the Scriptures and Christian thought over the centuries.

Which suggests a lack of depth of thought -- a common trait of contemporary pundits.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #308 on: November 03, 2012, 03:33:26 PM »
I've seen this posted on Facebook recently.

"If you don't want tax dollars helping the sick and poor, then it's time to stop saying you want a government based on Christian values." John Fugelsang. That is what many see when looking through "the lens of Scripture."

I have no idea who John Fugelsang is, what sort of authority he is, or whether he is a deep or shallow thinker. His quote, however, is unware of such things as subsidiarity, distinctions of the various estates, the differences between "society" and the various levels of civil "government" and the things which fall under their purview or responsibility, the difference between stewardship and taxation, and other such matters that one can find in both the Scriptures and Christian thought over the centuries.

Which suggests a lack of depth of thought -- a common trait of contemporary pundits.


You can Google him or look him up on Wiki to learn more about him.


Regardless of his authority (or lack thereof,) he presents what he -- and many who have posted his thought on facebook -- believe they see through "the lens of Scripture." Your critique of it having a "lack of depth of thought" I find pretty common among those who believe that "the lens of Scripture" has answers to all of society's problems.


Note: I did not say that I agreed with him (or that I disagreed with him). He is someone who uses "the lens of Scripture" to reach a conclusion that I figured some in this forum may not agree with.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #309 on: November 03, 2012, 03:42:14 PM »
I've seen this posted on Facebook recently.

"If you don't want tax dollars helping the sick and poor, then it's time to stop saying you want a government based on Christian values." John Fugelsang. That is what many see when looking through "the lens of Scripture."

I have no idea who John Fugelsang is, what sort of authority he is, or whether he is a deep or shallow thinker. His quote, however, is unware of such things as subsidiarity, distinctions of the various estates, the differences between "society" and the various levels of civil "government" and the things which fall under their purview or responsibility, the difference between stewardship and taxation, and other such matters that one can find in both the Scriptures and Christian thought over the centuries.

Which suggests a lack of depth of thought -- a common trait of contemporary pundits.


What difference does it make who John Fugelsang is? Can you not evaluate the words based on what they say, and not have to drag the author of them into consideration? Do you or don't you agree with the idea expressed in the word? That's a simple enough decision. The identity of the author should be irrelevant.


Matthew Voyer STS

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #310 on: November 03, 2012, 04:02:49 PM »
There is an interesting series of letters in today's Times re Friedman's opinion piece.    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/opinion/on-labels-what-does-it-mean-to-be-pro-life.html

Informed people are willing to read about ideas that may not fit their predetermined modes of thought.  It is part of being an educated person.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

You seem to fail to understand that the educated Christian person reads about ideas through the lens of Scripture and determines whether they align.


And throughout history very well-education Christians looking through "the lens of Scripture" have come to different views about many, many different things. The plethora of denominations that we now have is a clear illustration that this "lens" does not always offer clarity.


I've seen this posted on Facebook recently.


"If you don't want tax dollars helping the sick and poor, then it's time to stop saying you want a government based on Christian values." John Fugelsang. That is what many see when looking through "the lens of Scripture."


I don't think the deaconess would disagree that looking through her lens of scripture she sees a mandate to care for the sick and poor.  There are differing views however on how best to do that. In regards to the original topic of this thread our advocacy and protection of the preborn is an answer to that mandate. We speak up for the voiceless and protect the vulnerable.

Dadoo

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #311 on: November 03, 2012, 05:41:28 PM »
There is an interesting series of letters in today's Times re Friedman's opinion piece.    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/opinion/on-labels-what-does-it-mean-to-be-pro-life.html

Informed people are willing to read about ideas that may not fit their predetermined modes of thought.  It is part of being an educated person.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Mr Teigen,

Informed people do indeed read. From what they read they make judgements, often preliminary or interim ones. After that, they are not surprised to read the kind of piece that Friedmann produced last week . It was predictable knowing who he is. It was dripping with liberal cliches known to everyone who is informed. The folks here DO read. They read Friedmann and they probably read the letters you linked to as well. It is not to their shame that they are not converted to Friedmann's or your cause. THey are doing the intellectual lifting. It is not for want of having read pop commentators that they are pro life. If you want to convert them, maybe you have  a plea of your own and a theological case. Feel free to share.
Peter Kruse

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cssml

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #312 on: November 03, 2012, 06:00:36 PM »
Interesting, forbidding people to drink large sugary drinks is applauded for being prolife, telling people/not to kill the unborn and not to have sex is they don't want a baby is to be scorned!

Dan

Yes, but "It is part of being an educated person."   ;) , educated on matters of faith and morals from the NYT, I guess..

cssml

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #313 on: November 03, 2012, 06:03:46 PM »
There is an interesting series of letters in today's Times re Friedman's opinion piece.    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/opinion/on-labels-what-does-it-mean-to-be-pro-life.html

Informed people are willing to read about ideas that may not fit their predetermined modes of thought.  It is part of being an educated person.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

And I am sure you, being an educated person, will be only too ready to read:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/love-and-life/upload/pastoral-letter-marriage-love-and-life-in-the-divine-plan.pdf
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/love-and-life/upload/Love-and-Life-Abridged-Version.pdf (Adbridged Version)

...even though based on your posting, I am guessing it "may not fit [your] predetermined modes of thought".

John_Hannah

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Re: Abortion and Politics
« Reply #314 on: November 04, 2012, 08:38:59 AM »
I am totally opposed to abortion on demand and consider it murder. I hope and pray that Roe v. Wade will be overturned.

I see that Republican presidents have been no better than Democratic presidents with respect to Roe v. Wade.

Roe v. Wade is 39 years old. 23 out of those 39 years have been under Republican presidents; only 16 were under Democratic.

When either of them can actually produce results I will consider abortion an issue to factor into my voting decision.

In the meantime, I am totally opposed to abortion on demand and consider it murder. I hope and pray that Roe v. Wade will be overturned.


Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS