Author Topic: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia  (Read 40858 times)

Dave Likeness

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #210 on: July 19, 2012, 01:26:41 PM »
Jim Krauser, when I married my wife it was not
about income tax benefits, health insurance
advantages, or any other civil rights.

I married my wife because she was a wonderful
Christian woman and I wanted to spend the
rest of my life with her.  A Christian marriage is
not based on gaining an economic edge over
single persons or trying to get equal rights in
society.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #211 on: July 19, 2012, 01:28:47 PM »
The issue is that homosexual persons are not being treated by the law in an equal manner as everyone else. 
To say that homosexual persons have equal access to marriage because they can marry an opposite sex partner anytime they wish is illogical, irrational and ignorant.  What part of the definition of homosexual don't you understand?

The obvious response is: "What part of the definition of marriage don't you understand?"

Which doesn't get us very far, of course.
[snip]
Exactly.  It's all about what the definition of marriage is.  In this case, Pr. Krauser (and gay rights advocates) are assuming a definition which encompasses a person's romantic/sexual attraction interest as constituent.  If one frames it that way, certainly any law that interferes with that is irrational.  However, that also happens to be a radical redefinition of marriage--since for most of human history, a key pillar of marriage has not necessarily included prior mutual romantic sexual attraction, but certainly involved procreation consequences, which is only possible with a hetero-pairing.  (And I'll note that Pr. Speckhard has been bluntly direct on raising this point every time the topic comes up here.)

And so we go round and round.

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peter_speckhard

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #212 on: July 19, 2012, 01:29:35 PM »
The equality of man, the dignity of the person, the sanctity of life-- these are all things that are every bit as true and God-given as physical realities.....

Interestingly, many--myself included--would argue that opposition to marriage equality is a fundamental denial of the first two principles you describe. 
 
The issue is that homosexual persons are not being treated by the law in an equal manner as everyone else. 
To say that homosexual persons have equal access to marriage because they can marry an opposite sex partner anytime they wish is illogical, irrational and ignorant.  What part of the definition of homosexual don't you understand?
 
To use the civil law to disadvantage gay and lesbian persons vis a vis the benefits and prerogatives others enjoy or to express societal disapproval apart from any legitmate governmental purpose is abusing the dignity of their persons and treating them a inferior persons.
Again, you have to think through what those benefits are and why they exist. The nature of marriage and family is one that inherently involves economic dependents. The nature of homosexual relationships does not. So it is not a question of "marriage equality" because we already have that. It is a question of whether a gay relationship is fundamentally the same thing as a marriage. And in many crucial ways it is not. Granted, we've so distorted marriage already by treating it a mere partnership of mutual convenience and fulfillment rather than an inseparable, organic union, that it is difficult to see the difference between a gay relationship and many marriages, but it is the nature of the design of the thing, not the ways it has been abused, that is under discussion here.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #213 on: July 20, 2012, 06:33:46 PM »

To use the civil law to disadvantage gay and lesbian persons


The privileges and benefits culturally and in civil and tax law are not about disadvantaging gay and lesbian persons.  Their purpose is to encourage men to marry women and have children.  Which means, yes, the laws demanding sexual equality in such privileges and benefits are at cross-purposes to their purposes.

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Charles_Austin

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #214 on: July 20, 2012, 06:48:51 PM »
Steven says  the purpose of tax laws relating to marriage is "to encourage men to marry women and have children."

I ask if there is verifiable legislative history or just wishful thinking behind this declaration.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #215 on: July 20, 2012, 07:04:04 PM »
Steven says  the purpose of tax laws relating to marriage is "to encourage men to marry women and have children."

I ask if there is verifiable legislative history or just wishful thinking behind this declaration.

Actually, that's only a part of what I said.

But, yes, there is verifiable legislative history.  And decades of public (and recorded private) discussion, too.  As I wrote (apparently in vain) on another thread, "See, for instance, the role of Frances Perkins in the instituting of numerous progressive reforms, especially in designing and enacting the Social Security Act."

Pax, Steven+
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George Erdner

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #216 on: July 20, 2012, 07:17:42 PM »
Steven says  the purpose of tax laws relating to marriage is "to encourage men to marry women and have children."

I ask if there is verifiable legislative history or just wishful thinking behind this declaration.

Actually, that's only a part of what I said.

But, yes, there is verifiable legislative history.  And decades of public (and recorded private) discussion, too.  As I wrote (apparently in vain) on another thread, "See, for instance, the role of Frances Perkins in the instituting of numerous progressive reforms, especially in designing and enacting the Social Security Act."

Pax, Steven+

I'm curious about something. Are there very many laws on the books that go into great depth and detail in explaining why they were passed?
 
It seems to me that if we give the state legislatures and Congress credit for having some small measure of intelligence, how can we not assume that most laws that bring about a certain outcome were probably intended to bring about that outcome?

Norman Teigen

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #217 on: July 23, 2012, 06:02:08 AM »
This thread has gone on too long, but I wanted to clarify an issue that someone made earlier.  The issue is the ELS and the statement it has made on the ACA.   The statement is a real departure for the ELS in that the little synod has always maintained the teaching of the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms.  Now the ELS has gone political adopting the Republican political line.  How did this happen that the little synod departed from its historic teaching position?

The answer I have found after doing a little digging (it is after all a small synod) is that the synod's action  was influenced by an active set of adherents to the political cause for which the statement was adopted.  Particularly, a member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee, an active seeker of the Republican nomination for the 1st District Congressional seat in Minnesota, came to prevail.  This congressional aspirant is well known in Minnesota and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod as an extreme right wing political exponent.  This candidate,  by his own statements a financially endowed farmer, has come to prevail in the ELS statement on the ACA.   This ELS politician has been mostly unsuccessful in his previous attempts to achieve political office but he has been influential in the little synod as a professor at Bethany College and a member of the Doctrinal Committee.

Members of the would-be congressman's home church, whose pastor is the secretary of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, have told me that they have for many years been greatly embarrassed by their fellow member's extreme political views.  They find it embarrassing that his views should finally be adopted as church policy by the synod.

An examination of this congressional candidate's political statements and the ELS statement on the ACA show marked similarities.

My conclusion is that the ELS statement is a deviation from the historic Lutheran expression of the faith and is more political, not theological, in nature.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

LutherMan

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #218 on: July 23, 2012, 06:36:24 AM »
Why not name him so we can see for ourselves?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #219 on: July 23, 2012, 07:38:12 AM »
Yes, why be secretive about his name. Once we know his name, we can find what he himself has said about the issue at hand.

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #220 on: July 23, 2012, 08:10:36 AM »
Yes, why be secretive about his name. Once we know his name, we can find what he himself has said about the issue at hand.

Perhaps because such false witness about someone should not be forwarded any further than it has.  Mr. Teigen at least had the decency (or good sense) to keep it anonymous.

Mike

Charles_Austin

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #221 on: July 23, 2012, 08:24:05 AM »
Are you assuming, Mr. Gehlhausen, that what was posted just upstream was false witness? Some simple questions that should be in the "public record."
Did this person influence the WELS with regard to its stand on ACA?
Is this person as described, that is, a member of the doctrinal committee, a candidate for public office, a successful farmer?



Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #222 on: July 23, 2012, 08:40:55 AM »
Are you assuming, Mr. Gehlhausen, that what was posted just upstream was false witness?

Yes.

Members of the would-be congressman's home church, whose pastor is the secretary of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, have told me that they have for many years been greatly embarrassed by their fellow member's extreme political views.  They find it embarrassing that his views should finally be adopted as church policy by the synod.

This is highly questionable hearsay which definitely does not preserve our neighbor's reputation.  I highly doubt that the members of the would-be congressman's home church are embarrassed by his views, and even if they were, I submit that those views they would be embarrassed of differ from the very proper ones in defense of religious liberty shared by the Roman Catholic church and the LCMS.

Mike

David Garner

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #223 on: July 23, 2012, 09:41:16 AM »
This thread has gone on too long, but I wanted to clarify an issue that someone made earlier.  The issue is the ELS and the statement it has made on the ACA.   The statement is a real departure for the ELS in that the little synod has always maintained the teaching of the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms.  Now the ELS has gone political adopting the Republican political line.  How did this happen that the little synod departed from its historic teaching position?

The answer I have found after doing a little digging (it is after all a small synod) is that the synod's action  was influenced by an active set of adherents to the political cause for which the statement was adopted.  Particularly, a member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee, an active seeker of the Republican nomination for the 1st District Congressional seat in Minnesota, came to prevail.  This congressional aspirant is well known in Minnesota and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod as an extreme right wing political exponent.  This candidate,  by his own statements a financially endowed farmer, has come to prevail in the ELS statement on the ACA.   This ELS politician has been mostly unsuccessful in his previous attempts to achieve political office but he has been influential in the little synod as a professor at Bethany College and a member of the Doctrinal Committee.

Members of the would-be congressman's home church, whose pastor is the secretary of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, have told me that they have for many years been greatly embarrassed by their fellow member's extreme political views.  They find it embarrassing that his views should finally be adopted as church policy by the synod.

An examination of this congressional candidate's political statements and the ELS statement on the ACA show marked similarities.

My conclusion is that the ELS statement is a deviation from the historic Lutheran expression of the faith and is more political, not theological, in nature.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Wow, one person has such great influence over your entire Church body?

I had no idea the ELS was such a bunch of lemmings.

(sarcasm intended -- I actually believe the ELS is anything but a bunch of lemmings, I'm just being dense to make a point.....)
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles_Austin

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Re: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia
« Reply #224 on: July 23, 2012, 09:45:13 AM »
But Mr. Garner, we have heard often here that Lutherans (and not just those in the WELS) are mindless dupes, subject to manipulation and brain-washing by a small number of people with an agenda or by a cabal of church bureaucrats.  ;) :D ;D