Author Topic: Discussions re Affordable Care Act Characterized by Religious Paranoia  (Read 40864 times)

Norman Teigen

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There is no war on religion.    Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.  The Affordable Care Act is not a war on religion and the legislation does not prescribe abortion and sterilization.    Dobson is not mainstream [Are you kidding me?]   Conservative Lutherans have allowed themselves to be deceived by the unholy D Trinity  of  Dolan, Dobson, and Darrell (Issa).  None of the Lutherans have a legal basis to make a case against ACA but have allied themselves with the unholy Trinity and made it a crusade.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders would make their social and political views obligatory on the faithful and that is contrary to sound Lutheran teaching.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.  Many faithful Catholics such as Melinda Gates  (see today's TIME magazine) disagree with the right wing views of the bishops.   

It's a sham, good people.  Don't allow yourselves to be deceived.   

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

David Garner

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There is no war on religion.    Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.  The Affordable Care Act is not a war on religion and the legislation does not prescribe abortion and sterilization.    Dobson is not mainstream [Are you kidding me?]   Conservative Lutherans have allowed themselves to be deceived by the unholy D Trinity  of  Dolan, Dobson, and Darrell (Issa).  None of the Lutherans have a legal basis to make a case against ACA but have allied themselves with the unholy Trinity and made it a crusade.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders would make their social and political views obligatory on the faithful and that is contrary to sound Lutheran teaching.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.  Many faithful Catholics such as Melinda Gates  (see today's TIME magazine) disagree with the right wing views of the bishops.   

It's a sham, good people.  Don't allow yourselves to be deceived.   

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

I see a whole lot of assertions here but a distinct absence of argument.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Norman Teigen

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Dear Speckhard:

I don't admit the validity of your comparison of opposition to ACA and Jewish religious practices. 

RE Dolan and Dobson.   We Lutherans would agree, I think, that there is a clear distinction to be made  between the  realms of God's kingdom and the kingdom of Caesar.   The influence of  Catholic social policy is, and I admit to having read Herman Sasse, is the desire to ecclesiasticiz[/i]e the world.  Dobson and the Evangelicals would Christianize the world.   Both emphases lead to a "secularization of Christendom."

In Bach's St. John Passion there is the very dramatic section where Jesus appears before Pilate who wants to know if Jesus was King of the Jews.  Bach's text of Christ's response is taken right from the Scriptures:  Mein Reich ist nicht  von dieser Welt; ware mein Reich von diesel Welt, maine Diener warden darob kampfen, dads icy den Juden nicht uberantwortet wurde! abet, nun its mein Reich nicht von dannen.

Mein Reich ist night von dieser Welt:  My kingdom is not of this world.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

Steven Tibbetts

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Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land. 


Anti-Catholic social policy (via regulations), however, should be?

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Dadoo

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There is no war on religion.    Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.  The Affordable Care Act is not a war on religion and the legislation does not prescribe abortion and sterilization.    Dobson is not mainstream [Are you kidding me?]   Conservative Lutherans have allowed themselves to be deceived by the unholy D Trinity  of  Dolan, Dobson, and Darrell (Issa).  None of the Lutherans have a legal basis to make a case against ACA but have allied themselves with the unholy Trinity and made it a crusade.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders would make their social and political views obligatory on the faithful and that is contrary to sound Lutheran teaching.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.  Many faithful Catholics such as Melinda Gates  (see today's TIME magazine) disagree with the right wing views of the bishops.   

It's a sham, good people.  Don't allow yourselves to be deceived.   

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Norman,

If Melinda Gates wants to use her fortune to supply free contraception to all employees of Roman Catholic institutions she is not constrained from  doing so.

If Bp. Dolan is required by the HHS to supply the same medication then that is a different thing. THe faith he is vowed to uphold requires thet he object.

If the same HSS required Melinda Gates to supply the meds I am use she would be a bit more circumspect about the matter.

If Bp. Dolan was to comment on the business practices of Microsoft Corp (Gates was a VP and has a business degree) I would happily ignore him.

If Melinda Gates was to comment on the theology and moral teaching of the RC I am happy to do likewise.

The nice thing about the 21st century is, well, it is not the 16th century. You want to be a Catholic? Knock yourself out. You don't like RC anymore? 19,999 other denominations are waiting to receive you.

The other nice thing about the 21st century is, well: We don't have to hate on the RC anymore. We can and do teach what we want and what we are convinced and convicted is right. Sometimes that is the same as Bp. Dolan, sometimes, gasp(!) it is the same as Dobson (who is much, much less important that he and you think) but that is because sometimes we just agree. That simple. Doesn't make us suspect. We merely have come to the same conclusions.

And people are well  capable of making up their minds? And we live in a democracy? The second is false. I leave it up to you to research why. The former is a matter of having a mind that actually contains stuff that allows it to make something up. That is called formation. Melinda Gates missed a bunch of that when catechism came around. Had she listened to her church and its teaching, then she might have kept her mouth shut about the matter or simple have told Time that she agreed that Catholics ought avoid contraceptives. It is called formation and every church does it in some manner and form, including your. An example from my tradition would be that one not pull out the words "unholy" about others lightly or at all.

And there is no legal basis? There is for Roman Catholics that is why lawyers were ever so quickly found to handle the case and based that case on the freedom of religion clause in the first amendment? The debate, and you might have read it in March, really is whether the president or the RC have it right. Is religious freedom a matter of what the individual believes in the privacy of his heart or is it corporate and therefore extends to the institutions of the church? That case is going to get settled in some court and, yes, there is a legal case and argument to be made. Hosanna Tabor suggests that the SCOTUS that the RC has a good chance of winning. That case has ramifications for all denominations and religious institutions which I might just be a good idea for non RC, even Lutherans, to get involved. We have skin in the game.
The case you should have made was that Lutherans have no moral teaching that demands that they not agree to cover birth control for their employees. Maybe LCMS does. I would not know. Maybe ELS does. I do not know.

And the dust up is about RC social policy being forced upon the land? I was under the impression that it was the RC Church protesting that liberal Democratic Party social agendas were being forced unto it.

Anyway, the Democratic Party has Melinda and Bill and they have money.There will be another election with plenty of money spent to have political theatre. And the parking on the left will become the parking the right and beards will all grow longer overnight . . . and the vaudeville acts in the committee chambers will continue and it will not matter who has the chair. There will be circuses.
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Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.

Catholics are not asking that their "social policy" be made the law of the land.

They are asking that the law of the land not force them to act against their religious convictions.

Quite the difference.

Buckeye Deaconess

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There is no war on religion.    Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.  The Affordable Care Act is not a war on religion and the legislation does not prescribe abortion and sterilization.    Dobson is not mainstream [Are you kidding me?]   Conservative Lutherans have allowed themselves to be deceived by the unholy D Trinity  of  Dolan, Dobson, and Darrell (Issa).  None of the Lutherans have a legal basis to make a case against ACA but have allied themselves with the unholy Trinity and made it a crusade.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders would make their social and political views obligatory on the faithful and that is contrary to sound Lutheran teaching.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.  Many faithful Catholics such as Melinda Gates  (see today's TIME magazine) disagree with the right wing views of the bishops.   

It's a sham, good people.  Don't allow yourselves to be deceived.   

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

It appears that you are the one either confused or deceived.  This has nothing to do with making the social policy of the Catholic church the law of the land (see the posts above).  It has everything to do with requiring church organizations to, in fact, pay for abortifacient types of birth control, contrary to your claim otherwise.

This statement of yours is interesting:
Quote
The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.

You may want to look at the facts if you truly want to find out how people are making up their own minds.  I have no doubt they'll act upon their mindset come November.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 10:41:21 PM by Buckeye Deaconess »

J.L. Precup

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There is no war on religion.    Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.  The Affordable Care Act is not a war on religion and the legislation does not prescribe abortion and sterilization.    Dobson is not mainstream [Are you kidding me?]   Conservative Lutherans have allowed themselves to be deceived by the unholy D Trinity  of  Dolan, Dobson, and Darrell (Issa).  None of the Lutherans have a legal basis to make a case against ACA but have allied themselves with the unholy Trinity and made it a crusade.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders would make their social and political views obligatory on the faithful and that is contrary to sound Lutheran teaching.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.  Many faithful Catholics such as Melinda Gates  (see today's TIME magazine) disagree with the right wing views of the bishops.   

It's a sham, good people.  Don't allow yourselves to be deceived.   

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

It appears that you are the one either confused or deceived.  This has nothing to do with making the social policy of the Catholic church the law of the land (see the posts above).  It has everything to do with requiring church organizations to, in fact, pay for abortifacient types of birth control, contrary to your claim otherwise.

This statement of yours is interesting:
Quote
The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.

You may want to look at the facts if you truly want to find out how people are making up their own minds.  I have no doubt they'll act upon their mindset come November.

The conclusion of your quoted article:  "The foundation asked what opponents should do in light of the Supreme Court decision. More than half (56 percent) want Obamacare foes to "stop their efforts to block the law and move on to other national problems," while just 38 percent hope opponents will "continue trying to block the law from being implemented." Those saying it's time to move on include 26 percent of Republicans and 51 percent of independents who lean to neither party."
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

James_Gale

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There is no war on religion.    Catholic social policy should not be made the law of the land.  The Affordable Care Act is not a war on religion and the legislation does not prescribe abortion and sterilization.    Dobson is not mainstream [Are you kidding me?]   Conservative Lutherans have allowed themselves to be deceived by the unholy D Trinity  of  Dolan, Dobson, and Darrell (Issa).  None of the Lutherans have a legal basis to make a case against ACA but have allied themselves with the unholy Trinity and made it a crusade.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders would make their social and political views obligatory on the faithful and that is contrary to sound Lutheran teaching.  The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.  Many faithful Catholics such as Melinda Gates  (see today's TIME magazine) disagree with the right wing views of the bishops.   

It's a sham, good people.  Don't allow yourselves to be deceived.   

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

It appears that you are the one either confused or deceived.  This has nothing to do with making the social policy of the Catholic church the law of the land (see the posts above).  It has everything to do with requiring church organizations to, in fact, pay for abortifacient types of birth control, contrary to your claim otherwise.

This statement of yours is interesting:
Quote
The conservative Lutheran crusaders assume a knowledge of politics and social policy which they feel obligated to instill upon the people denying that people in a democracy are quite capable of making up their own minds.

You may want to look at the facts if you truly want to find out how people are making up their own minds.  I have no doubt they'll act upon their mindset come November.

The conclusion of your quoted article:  "The foundation asked what opponents should do in light of the Supreme Court decision. More than half (56 percent) want Obamacare foes to "stop their efforts to block the law and move on to other national problems," while just 38 percent hope opponents will "continue trying to block the law from being implemented." Those saying it's time to move on include 26 percent of Republicans and 51 percent of independents who lean to neither party."

That poll is an outlier.  See, for example, this.  In any event, the voters will be deciding the question at the ballot box, which is the only poll that really matters.

But the principal issue here is a narrow one -- the imposition of federal law to impinge on the free exercise of religion by churches.

Buckeye Deaconess

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That poll is an outlier.  See, for example, this.  In any event, the voters will be deciding the question at the ballot box, which is the only poll that really matters.

But the principal issue here is a narrow one -- the imposition of federal law to impinge on the free exercise of religion by churches.

And then there is this one.

In the latest poll, 55 percent of registered voters said they consider the law indeed to be a tax increase, while 36 percent said otherwise.

As you stated, the voters will make up their minds themselves and demonstrate as much at the polls.

Norman Teigen

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Interesting exchange of comments.   Thank you all very much for reading my opinions.  Again, there is no war on religion.  There was a compromise and the health insurance companies are to pay for the prescriptions which the RC object to.  There is no First Amendment violation here. The conservative Lutherans have been duped into following along behind Bishop Dolan and the RC.  We are NOT all Catholics now.   Sayonara.

Norman Teigen, Layman
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Norman Teigen

George Erdner

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That poll is an outlier.  See, for example, this.  In any event, the voters will be deciding the question at the ballot box, which is the only poll that really matters.

But the principal issue here is a narrow one -- the imposition of federal law to impinge on the free exercise of religion by churches.

And then there is this one.

In the latest poll, 55 percent of registered voters said they consider the law indeed to be a tax increase, while 36 percent said otherwise.

As you stated, the voters will make up their minds themselves and demonstrate as much at the polls.

Regardless of what people "consider", the truth is that it is what it is, and what it is is a tax. The fact that 36% are too blind to see it for what it is doesn't change what it is.

Matt Hummel

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Interesting exchange of comments.   Thank you all very much for reading my opinions.  Again, there is no war on religion.  There was a compromise and the health insurance companies are to pay for the prescriptions which the RC object to.  There is no First Amendment violation here. The conservative Lutherans have been duped into following along behind Bishop Dolan and the RC.  We are NOT all Catholics now.   Sayonara.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Norman-

On some of these issues you are, in the words of Wolfgang Pauli, "Not even wrong."

Many Catholic entitites- like Dioceses and Catholic Charities around the country self-insure- so guess what Sparky- we will end up paying.  And we do have perfectly acceptable medically proven alternatives which Obamacare does not cover. So who is it that won't compromise?

The Catholic Church is not asking that "everyone be denied access."  We are asking for the right to exercise our religion.  Like the LCMS did in the Hosanna-Tabor case.

Saying Melinda Gates is a faithful Catholic when she stands opposed to the teaching of the magisterium would be like declaring someone a faithful member of LCMS though of course s/he is fighting for WO, open communion and same sex blessings.  Not saying a person is bad- just saying Mighty MO believes teaches confesses one thing, this individual pretty much the exact opposite. So too with Ms. Gates, and a slew of others. 

Yeah- I get that you have a serious hate on for the Papists and for the Evangelicals.  It's really kind of cute.  But pay attention to the current administration's use of "Freedom of worship" instead of the Constitution's "Freedom of religion."  That is what we are on about.  And then read the words of Pr. Neimoller.

Hope you find the whetstone you seem so desperately to be seeking.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 10:24:26 AM by Prolife Professional »
Matt Hummel


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James Gustafson

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Interesting exchange of comments.   Thank you all very much for reading my opinions.  Again, there is no war on religion.  There was a compromise and the health insurance companies are to pay for the prescriptions which the RC object to.  There is no First Amendment violation here. The conservative Lutherans have been duped into following along behind Bishop Dolan and the RC.  We are NOT all Catholics now.   Sayonara.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Since when is a mandate from one of three sides called a compromise?  Neither the Catholics NOR the insurance companies agreed to that change, therefore, it is by default, not a compromise. 

As to who pays for it, that's a non-issue.

Fed Gov: We want you to buy and dispense product x to those in your institution.

Church:  We consider the use of product x a sinful act.  We can not participate in any form of it for fear of the eternal soul of our people, we do not ban the use of product x by people that work for us but we can't participate in providing it.

Fed Gov: Okay, we'll compromise, we'll order the store to provide it for free so you won't have to pay for it, we'll just have you provide product x to your people.

Church: Um, no. You're not listening are you?

How hard is this to follow?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 09:55:34 AM by James Gustafson »

Buckeye Deaconess

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It appears Mr. Teigen would like to make our minds up for us, the very thing he accuses conservative Lutheran leaders of doing.  Interesting double standard there.