Author Topic: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...  (Read 8691 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2007, 06:34:55 PM »
One is quite capable of reading and understanding Rome's teaching on purgatory and very much still saying it is wrong precisely because it is contrary to Sacred Scripture and an offense to the free and full salvation that is ours through Christ our Lord.

Mike Bennett

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2007, 06:38:55 PM »
There are two discussions happening simultaneously here. Some people are trying clarify what the official RC teaching is as opposed to sterotypes about that teaching, while others are pointing out that the RC teaching is wrong. For the former, quotations from the RC catechism matter, but for the latter they don't matter one whit.

Actually Peter I disagree with your last statement. If one is arguing against the RC teaching and why it is wrong, then one must make sure that he or she clearly understands that teaching. Quotes from the RC Catechism can make sure that the position which some are attacking is the properly understood position of the RCC.

I'm reminded of a column written more than four years ago by Joseph Sobran commending the debating style of St. Thomas Aquinas.† Sobran wrote:

"Iíve just been reading some recent theological controversies, and how I wished St. Thomas could have stepped in to settle them. The disputes werefull of vigorous, thought-provoking arguments; but the arguments were also adulterated by overstatements, imprecision, and even personal accusations. The phrase odium theologicum sprang to mind. And in some cases the disputants hadnít taken the preliminary step of defining their terms.

"In other words, if youíre not careful, theological debates can become alarmingly similar to political journalism, where truth-seeking easily turns into mere partisan polemics, or just bickering with annoying people. The goal is victory over a humiliated opponent. This spirit is not necessarily charitable.

"The spirit of Aquinas is very different. He isnít merely charitable to his opponents; he is always on his opponentís side. That is, he wants to confront opposing arguments at their best, even if he has to reformulate them himself and make them purer, stronger, and more precise than their advocates have done.

"Aquinas has the rare quality of wanting to know all that can possibly besaid for the other side. He understands that you canít find good answers without good questions. The human mind needs both.

"There are no cheap shots or straw men in the Summa Theologica. Aquinas has no need of them; they would only corrupt what he is trying to do. When he debates the existence of God, he doesnít cast aspersions on wicked atheists; he simply tries to make the strongest case for atheism before he gives his reasons for rejecting them and for affirming Godís existence. Thinking is complicated enough, without being further complicated by personalities ó even oneís own personality."

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How I wish what Sobran wished.

Mike Bennett
ďWhat peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?Ē  2 Kings 9:22

Charles_Austin

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2007, 07:57:10 PM »
Pastor Baudler writes:
But please spare me anymore quotes from the Catholic Catechism. I have my own copy and that of Trent. I'm Lutheran, not a Roman or "Evangelical Catholic."

I comment:
I think the jury is still out on precisely what you are.

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2007, 07:58:33 PM »
Mike:

I think it was Fr. Edmund Oakes, SJ who wrote a similar article a number of years ago in "First Things".

Especially in an anonymous medium like an internet forum, where I personally know only 5 or 6 folks who post here personally,  I believe it is imperative that we go out of our way to be courteous to one another and attempt to "hear" each other out without interrupting.

I especially appreciate Mike Bennett's post above as it attempts to set the bar higher, which leads to greater understanding as well as a higher level of discourse.

May I suggest, Pr. Baudler, that you listen more, assume less and operate in Christian charity even where you think you smell heresy.  I am weary of your predictable attacks and caricatures of your "opponents" views.  Please surprise me and reply with charity instead of another attack. (I don't use smileys, otherwise I would put a "lighten up" icon here).

MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2007, 09:10:04 PM »
And again I ask why some people are getting so hot under the (non-Roman) collar over this. Is there anyone who sees the doctrine of Purgatory as clear & present danger to the spiritual welfare of our congregants?

There are for more immediate issues about which one can get exercised.  Find me the Lutheran parish in ELCA or LCMS that has a picture of the Divine Mercy that is venrated and then I'll get as angry as Kris, Paul & Fr. Luther 1517 (which strikes me as a suspiciously Romish nom de web!)

Well, gotta go time to do my beads... ;D

Matt Hummel+
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 09:43:33 AM by Matt Hummel »

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2007, 08:43:44 AM »
I especially appreciate Mike Bennett's post above as it attempts to set the bar higher, which leads to greater understanding as well as a higher level of discourse.

May I suggest, Pr. Baudler, that you listen more, assume less and operate in Christian charity even where you think you smell heresy.† I am weary of your predictable attacks and caricatures of your "opponents" views.† Please surprise me and reply with charity instead of another attack. (I don't use smileys, otherwise I would put a "lighten up" icon here).

So much for the higher bar.