Author Topic: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...  (Read 9043 times)

frluther1517

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2007, 05:49:52 PM »
Matt:

Since I started the thread, thanks for bringing it back.  I am delighted that you experienced grace on Divine Mercy Sunday.  My reason for bringing the news release from ZENIT is the whole indulgence thing.  I wish the whole thing would go away, so we Evangelical and Roman Catholics can get serious about working out our differences and coming together when we can do so in integrity.

As long as indulgences and purgatory continue to be on "the books", though clearly not in THE BOOK, I suspect we shall remain at more than arm's length and continue to throw darts at each other (actually, they tend to ignore us pretty easily, we keep thinking it's 1517).

Sorry for getting off topic.  I thought I started to be on topic talking about purgatory, but got side tracked into a discussion about law. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 06:28:53 PM by frluther1517 »

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2007, 06:11:57 PM »
Sorry for getting of topic.  I thought I started to be on topic talking about purgatory, but got side tracked into a discussion about law. 

No problem. Getting into a back and forth with Kris tends (in my observation) to get tangential real quick.  I am not the Czar of this thread, my comments were for Matt, not for anyone else having an intramural discussion.

MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2007, 07:06:34 PM »
Matt:

Since I started the thread, thanks for bringing it back.  I am delighted that you experienced grace on Divine Mercy Sunday.  My reason for bringing the news release from ZENIT is the whole indulgence thing.  I wish the whole thing would go away, so we Evangelical and Roman Catholics can get serious about working out our differences and coming together when we can do so in integrity.

As long as indulgences and purgatory continue to be on "the books", though clearly not in THE BOOK, I suspect we shall remain at more than arm's length and continue to throw darts at each other (actually, they tend to ignore us pretty easily, we keep thinking it's 1517).

Dave-

You're welcome.  Nice to know that I can be of help sometimes.

When I was working on my Masters in Christian spirituality, I had to spend some time thinking about purgatory.

I can see the logic aas it was explained to me (though we are not going to be offering up prayers at my parish any time soon)

As one person put it-

Imagine you are mucking about in the sewer all day.  All of the sudden you are invited to a wonderful party.  Wouldn't you like an opportunity to shower up & get dressed in your best party clothes before attending?

I know our Lutheran answer is that the invitation has the washing  & the dressing built in so to speak.  Imagine opening that envelope!  ;D 

However, as the Catholic instructors spoke to the issue, there was never any doubt that one was saved by Christ alone the grace alone.  It was only a matter of how that was worked out.

As for our direct approach, not that this is a correct analogy, but I am reminded of the end of WWII in the ETO when American GIs ended up killing some of the Concentration Camp survivors.  The GIs saw these poor walking skeletons.  Moved by pity, they fed the people their food.  Because they had been starved so long, the richness of the food they were given killed them.  They needed to be given IVs and weaker foods to build them up.  Could we see Purgatory as that period of "bulking up?"

Matt Hummel+


MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2007, 08:12:31 PM »
I'm having an extremely difficult time understanding why anyone who subscribes to the Lutheran Confessions would be interested in defending the anti-Christian, anti-Gospel and anti-Biblical notion of "purgatory" or a "waiting room" for heaven.

I would assume that you mean me, so I will give the Lutheran answer-

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

    What does this mean?--Answer.

    We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.
[/u]


 ((http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html#tencommandments)

My Catholic friends would find your comment that their beliefs are anti-Christian and anti-Gospel (though some would cop to anti-biblical) either amusing or offensive or both.

Just because I say I understand does not mean that I subscribe.

But hey- thanks for absolutely proving my point about Lutheran popular piety being based in unthinking anti-popery.

Matt Hummel+





Charles_Austin

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2007, 10:42:38 PM »
Pastor Baudler opines:
While Pr. Austin appears somewhat clueless on this question, our Lutheran Confessions, thank heavens, are not, to wit: "[The church] is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in all its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel." (AC 7) So a test question for Pr. Austin to redeem himself: What exactly did Melanchthon and the Wittenberg Reformers mean by that statement? (Hint: Campeggio said it had something to do with a cobbler.)

I comment:
Do you ever stop with the snooty and oftimes irrelevant citations? To "redeem myself"? My "clueless" self? Sheesh!

At least (am mindestens) there was no unnecessary bi- or tri-lingual screen clutter this time.

Even if I wanted to wrangle that sentence, I'd say that the "purity" refers to the Gospel and not to our preaching of it; which is exactly what I said in my previous comment. The Gospel gets through, despite our imperfections.

So let's not toss around little bits of Reformation history trivia about what Melanchthon or Campeggio said when getting their shoes fixed. (I've got a stash of that stuff just below the shelf where I keep my "Heroes of the 16th Century" comic books.) i'll just whomp myself upside the head for not realizing that this discussion has nowhere to go.

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2007, 07:58:02 AM »
Ian: "Are you telling me we don't have to Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind?  Do we not have to love even our enemies??"

     In Christ we are not "bound" to love, we are "freed up" to love. It's grace over law. (3rd article of the creed.)

Ian: "Sorry for getting off topic.  I thought I started to be on topic talking about purgatory, but got side tracked into a discussion about law."

     You weren't sidetracked at all. Purgatory is law. It is the nonsensical Roman equivalent of Luther's defining distinction between a Christian
     and a Muslim: A Christian is always certain of their future before God, a Muslim never is. Purgatory is about uncertainty, uncertainty is about
     fear, fear is about law, law is about sin, sin is about separation from God, separation from God is death. "For you did not receive the spirit of
     slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship."
   
Dave: "I wish the whole thing would go away, so we Evangelical and Roman Catholics can get serious about working out our differences and coming together when we can do so in integrity."

     "Evangelical Catholics" (notice: no "Lutheran") are "Roman Catholic" wannabes forever relegated to the purgatory of ecclesial uncertainty
     through Dominus Iesus. Something to do with papal envy. Or did you mean "evangelical catholic?"   


Matt:  "My Catholic friends would find your comment that their beliefs are anti-Christian and anti-Gospel (though some would cop to anti-biblical) either amusing or offensive or both."

     Invoking the 8th commandment in the case of false doctrine is inapplicable. Try the 1st.
   
Austin: "Even if I wanted to wrangle that sentence, I'd say that the "purity" refers to the Gospel and not to our preaching of it; which is exactly what I said in my previous comment."

     You wrangle wrongly. No cigar. (Hint # 2: It's what distinguishes a Lutheran from an "Evangelical Catholic.") Three tries for a quarter...

frluther1517

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2007, 09:31:21 AM »
Kris' reply: In Christ we are not "bound" to love, we are "freed up" to love. It's grace over law. (3rd article of the creed.)


Ian's reply:  Kris no one is arguing that this is some form of works righteousness, get over it.  Grace is always the presupposition, either stated or not.  But clearly the justified are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind and love our neighbors as our self.  There is a new obedience FOR THE JUSTIFIED, namely Christ.  Grace always is the first action which moves us to do these things.   

Kris' statement:
     You weren't sidetracked at all. Purgatory is law. It is the nonsensical Roman equivalent of Luther's defining distinction between a Christian
     and a Muslim: A Christian is always certain of their future before God, a Muslim never is. Purgatory is about uncertainty, uncertainty is about
     fear, fear is about law, law is about sin, sin is about separation from God, separation from God is death. "For you did not receive the spirit of
     slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship."


Ian's response:
This is just flatly wrong.  Purgatory has nothing to do with the uncertainty of the Christian before God.    In fact it is the exact opposite only the redeemed are in purgatory, for purification before coming face to face with the Triune God.  Your litany of connections, which appears to be impressive, is just a fallacious argument in disguise.  These do not necessarily flow from the other.


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come
my emphasis
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 09:38:35 AM by frluther1517 »

Michael_Rothaar

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2007, 11:38:36 AM »
I'm having an extremely difficult time understanding why anyone who subscribes to the Lutheran Confessions would be interested in defending the anti-Christian, anti-Gospel and anti-Biblical notion of "purgatory" or a "waiting room" for heaven.

Could it be that there are some confessional Lutherans who are willing to believe that our ancestors in the faith who, over generations, hypothesized the existence of purgatory were not opposed to Christ, not opposed to the Gospel and not opposed to the Bible?

It is possible to disagree and argue a contrary position without attributing ill will and bad motives to people.

Now, in fact, Luther did make accusations of unworthy motives respecting purgatory, relics and the "treasury of merit,"  particularly with respect to fundraising. But the revenue potential came long after, for example, the veneration of relics. Nobody in 2nd-century Smyrna was saying, "let's collect Polycarp's bones and see if we can make a few bucks out of them."

It's always fruitful to take a look at the impulses that gave rise to practice, and the questions their hypotheses were attempting to address.
Mike Rothaar
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Mind and Spirit still working.

MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2007, 12:01:29 PM »
In The Screwtape Letters, the eponymous Screwtape shares with Wormwood how Satan keeps the world & the Church off balance.  In times of puritanism, the devil has folks worried about licentiousness.  In times antinomianism, he has them fearful of pharisaical thoughts & deeds.  At a time when we need to worry about (to use an old term that perhaps FoA precludes our using) crypto-calvinism, why are we so worried about Rome?

My point that the self appointed Gnesio-Lutherans have yet to address is this- Do you think that at any time soon (i.e., before the eschaton) that there is a danger of Lutherans lapsing into such papistical practices as praying for the souls in purgatory?

If the Lutheran Church, or at least the part in which I serve as an ELCA pastor, is going to fall off the horse, it will be square into a pile of Mainline Protestantism.

I don't worry about the Catholics hiding under our altars.  I worry about the folks bringing in the Communion tables & works righteousness through appropriate social actions.

Matt Hummel+


peter_speckhard

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2007, 12:09:16 PM »
In other words, via purgatory, Rome says to the faithful:

"Welcome to the joy of your Lord, but....please take a seat here and take a number!"

Or: "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever, well, that is, after my 'time out' in purgatory."

Or: "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there you shall be, well, eventually after you spend time in purgatory clearing customs on your way to heaven."

I'm not sure this is accurrate. It makes all the difference in the world whether we're talking about something in time or instantaneous. The idea of a certain negotiable number of years in purgatory is entirely opposed to the Gospel, but the concept of a purging from sin is a Gospel thing itself. I don't expect to be saint and sinner in heaven, but only a saint. But I also expect to be myself. Therefore, something has to give, as everyone who knows me can testify. The Gospel promise has to include a "purging" or fundamental changing of my nature; one cannot be forensically righteous by faith for all eternity or heaven will be no different from this world. But if you could step through a curtain of fire and be purged of lust, greed, hatred, envy and every sin, would you do it?

The RC problem is that they talk about the mere purging concept with some people but won't refute the former "suffer punishments in proportion to your evil deeds for a really long time unless somebody prays you" concept, so everything is muddled. Best to stick to the simple Gospel, but remember that the promise of actual perfection, complete sanctification, is part of the Gospel message, part of the picture of heaven. Every Christian longs for that. To hunger and thirst for righteousness means more than hungering and thirsting for forgiveness; it means hungering and thirsting first for justification and also for sanctification. In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, we will be changed. If you want to call that purgatory I don't care; I just don't want the idea replaced with the traditional idea of purgatory.    

Deb_H.

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2007, 03:23:35 PM »
only the redeemed are in purgatory, for purification before coming face to face with the Triune God. [ . . .]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Again, the Catholic catechism has no authority on a Lutheran discussion list.  For me, anyway.
And again, if this is necessary, then all have to do it since none would be completely 'pure' at the time of their bodily death, so praying for them to spend less time there doing what is necessary seems odd to me.  It's their job ... pray that they 'do better' on earth while they're alive.

The way I see it, at the moment of my death, the pure white garments of Jesus and his atonement will cover the stain of my sins and will make purgatory or any such place completely unnecessary!  Which is mostly why I'm not a Catholic of any sort.

Debbie Hesse

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2007, 03:47:33 PM »
Again, the Catholic catechism has no authority on a Lutheran discussion list.  For me, anyway.

You've missed the point, Deb. Certainly the Catholic catechism has some "authority" just about anywhere to describe what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches--which is, turns out, not really how Kris characterized--or caricatured--it. Whether you or I believe what that catechism teaches is another question, but it was quoted as evidence for what the Roman Catholic Church itself teaches.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2007, 05:47:54 PM »
Ian's response:

"This is just flatly wrong.  Purgatory has nothing to do with the uncertainty of the Christian before God. Absolutely it does! According to Catholic doctrine, one does not know the degree of one's redemption or what further requirements there are for "spiritual perfection" beyond the blood of Christ at one's death. This makes a total farce of the total expiation of all our sins through Christ's blood on the cross and is just so much ecclesial pornography. In fact it is the exact opposite only the redeemed are in purgatory, for purification before coming face to face with the Triune God. No one is in purgatory! It doesn't exist. It is a myth. A complete and utter fable meant to justify the Catholic pseudo-sacrament of Penance and the Treasury of Merits. Your litany of connections, which appears to be impressive, is just a fallacious argument in disguise.  These do not necessarily flow from the other." It is impressive, it flows, and I challenge you to show biblically and confessionally how it doesn't. (But please spare me anymore quotes from the Catholic Catechism. I have my own copy and that of Trent. I'm Lutheran, not a Roman or "Evangelical Catholic.")
 

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2007, 05:57:01 PM »
There are two discussions happening simultaneously here. Some people are trying clarify what the official RC teaching is as opposed to sterotypes about that teaching, while others are pointing out that the RC teaching is wrong. For the former, quotations from the RC catechism matter, but for the latter they don't matter one whit.

frluther1517

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2007, 06:03:55 PM »
There are two discussions happening simultaneously here. Some people are trying clarify what the official RC teaching is as opposed to sterotypes about that teaching, while others are pointing out that the RC teaching is wrong. For the former, quotations from the RC catechism matter, but for the latter they don't matter one whit.

Actually Peter I disagree with your last statement.  If one is arguing against the RC teaching and why it is wrong, then one must make sure that he or she clearly understands that teaching.  Quotes from the RC Catechism can make sure that the position which some are attacking is the properly understood position of the RCC.