Author Topic: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...  (Read 9044 times)

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2007, 07:25:49 PM »

Try reading the rest of Romans, there's a sharp turn in 12, because of the preceeding 11 chapters.  "I appeal to you THEREFORE, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."  Romans 12:1   Becaue of Christ's work on the Cross and our union to him in Holy Baptism we are now able to do such a command from Paul.  No one here is denying Christ, the Cross or being united with him, in fact we take it very seriously and believe in Christ probably just as much as you do. 

In Christ,
Ian

Ian,

Are you saying we are now able to keep the law? If so, exactly how?

Thanks.

MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2007, 07:49:58 PM »
Please pardon me for going back to the original point of this discussion.

But...

I happened to be at a Mass on Dvine Mercy Sunday (actually the Saturday).  The celebrant at end explained what was going on.  To my uneducated Lutheran ears, I heard at lot about God's grace through Christ alone.

I also have a dear friend who is an RC priest who was part of the group that went over to Rome for St. Faustina's cannonization.  While this may not be to our Lutheran liking, again, his emphasis to me sounded pretty solidly Solus Christus/Sola Gratia.

I have to say I am worried that we can always scare up a 5 page anti-popery riot over this, but we seem complacent over the fact that some of the folks that we (at least in the ELCA) are in full partnership with are ready to undo the gift of the Holy Spirit in the celebration of "Pluralism Sunday."

Which of these two digressions from the purity of the Lutheran Gospel ( :D) do you think
a) is closer to the actual Faith received
b) poses a more immediate threat to the spiritual welfare of our flocks?

Given the prejudices of most Lutherans I have encountered, it will be a cold day in Guam before folks took up any of that "Catholic mumbo-jumbo," but I can  see some of them bringing me a print out from Pluralism Sunday with a bright smile on their faces and "can we do this?" on their lips.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 02:35:55 PM by Matt Hummel »

Eric_Swensson

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2007, 08:21:08 PM »

Try reading the rest of Romans, there's a sharp turn in 12, because of the preceeding 11 chapters.  "I appeal to you THEREFORE, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."  Romans 12:1   Becaue of Christ's work on the Cross and our union to him in Holy Baptism we are now able to do such a command from Paul.  No one here is denying Christ, the Cross or being united with him, in fact we take it very seriously and believe in Christ probably just as much as you do. 

In Christ,
Ian

Ian,

Are you saying we are now able to keep the law? If so, exactly how?

Thanks.

Kris, no one would say that, so this is basically boring, a red-herring, whatever. What might be more interesting is to ask, and I do ask you with a mind to learning why you are pressing this, "Is there no aspect of the law that we are able to keep?"

frluther1517

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2007, 08:30:55 PM »
  That salvation brings about an internal effect as well, i.e. the removal of original sin.  I have no clue what led you down a treatise on the law. 

What led me straight to a treatise on the law is your statement below:

"Now if this SIN still remains in the Christian it obviously will not be allowed into the Kingdom of God.  SIN is opposed to the will of God and as a matter of fact cannot remain in us if we belive that our salvation is union with Christ and the Triune God.  Such a union between SIN and God cannot exist for a FULL UNION.  We are still a defective creature who is not the creature God has called us to be, even at death.  It would seem then that this SIN needs to go away before salvation (fulll union with the Triune God) is even possible.  Here is the theological possibility of speaking about purgatory, understood as a process or way where the SIN is removed by the saved in order to enter into ultimate salvation, Union with the Triune God.  Seems to make sense to me..."

How does one not conclude from this that you are advocating works righteousness through the fulfillment of the law? Asked differently, How in the world is sin removed "by the saved?"

Thanks.

Kris,
NOW I UNDERSTAND!!!! That is clearly a typo and a mistake in my editing!   What should be written is, "whereBY the SIN is removed from the saved in order to enter into ultimate salvation...etc."  I did not mean to say, "the SIN is removed BY the saved."  Please forgive my typos, I am going back to correct that previous post!   

frluther1517

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2007, 08:49:12 PM »

Try reading the rest of Romans, there's a sharp turn in 12, because of the preceeding 11 chapters.  "I appeal to you THEREFORE, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."  Romans 12:1   Becaue of Christ's work on the Cross and our union to him in Holy Baptism we are now able to do such a command from Paul.  No one here is denying Christ, the Cross or being united with him, in fact we take it very seriously and believe in Christ probably just as much as you do. 

In Christ,
Ian

Ian,

Are you saying we are now able to keep the law? If so, exactly how?

Thanks.

Kris,

What I was trying to get at is that for the Christian there is a New Obedience, namely obedience to Christ.  There is not some amorphous freedom that is won by Christ apart from himself.  The question of freedom also needs to be discussed.  What exactly are we freed from or for?  In the account of Genesis it isn't the Law that's the problem, it's rather the disobedience of Adam and Eve.  The Law in the Garden can be understood, both for their protection and as an act of worship to God (by not eating).  They ate and their sin is the plight that we face today and it is what Christ has freed us from, the bondage to Sin which the Law in its goodness reveals and condemns.  If we say the Law is the problem and not SIN, then Ps. 1 and Mt. 5:17-20 makes no sense at all and our freedom becomes anarchy/lawlessness.  The Ten Commandments and Christ's commandments to love are in someway binding upon the Christian.  I am sure you wouldn't argue against that...

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2007, 12:10:33 PM »
Matt:

"Which of these two digressions from the purity of the Lutheran Gospel do you think
a) is closer to the actual Faith received
b) poses a more immediate threat to the spiritual welfare of our flocks?"

I'd say, six of one, half a dozen of the other. False doctrine is what it is.

Eric:

"Kris, no one would say that, so this is basically boring, a red-herring, whatever. What might be more interesting is to ask, and I do ask you with a mind to learning why you are pressing this, "Is there no aspect of the law that we are able to keep?"

The reason I'm pressing this is I can't believe anyone called "Lutheran" would give purgatory a sympathetic hearing here. And the answer to the question is obviously "No."

Blessings.
 
 
 
 

Charles_Austin

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2007, 12:46:59 PM »
Matt Hummel asks:

of these two digressions from the purity of the Lutheran Gospel do you think

I comment:
Well, Matt, I do not believe there is such a thing as the "purity of the Lutheran Gospel." Everything we preach, teach, and order is tainted by sin; and the "purity of the Gospel" (whether Lutheran or Roman or Anglican) manages to get through by the grace of God, not by our jinkering with texts or confessions. Pastor Baudler writes as if there were a purity and absolute formulation of a number of things, but he is wrong about that.

MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2007, 02:34:42 PM »
Well, Matt, I do not believe there is such a thing as the "purity of the Lutheran Gospel."

I apologize for the mistaken assumption that people would read the sentence and understand that I was speaking some what tongue and cheek.  I will now go & redact my statement with the suitable emoticon.

Matt Hummel+

MMH

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2007, 02:42:02 PM »
I'd say, six of one, half a dozen of the other. False doctrine is what it is.

Well, yeah- but the point is- which presents more of a clear & present danger to the world-view of the average ELCA Lutheran?

Seeing that so much of the popular piety is wrapped up in "We're not Catholic!" (One is reminded of the opening sequence from M. Python's Meaning of Life for the definition of Protestantism) I contend that while Divine Mercy Sunday may be false doctrine, it does not present the same allurement as does the silly, sophistic, self loathing of some Mainliners (ala Pluralism Sunday).

Eric_Swensson

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2007, 02:56:09 PM »
Kris, in your view, does law only and always convict us of sin?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 02:59:13 PM by Eric_Swensson »

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2007, 04:58:41 PM »
Pastor Baudler writes as if there were a purity and absolute formulation of a number of things, but he is wrong about that.

While Pr. Austin appears somewhat clueless on this question, our Lutheran Confessions, thank heavens, are not, to wit: "[The church] is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in all its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel." (AC 7) So a test question for Pr. Austin to redeem himself: What exactly did Melanchthon and the Wittenberg Reformers mean by that statement? (Hint: Campeggio said it had something to do with a cobbler.)

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2007, 05:09:16 PM »
Kris, in your view, does law only and always convict us of sin?


The law always accuses us, it always shows that God is wrathful.

Kris Baudler

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2007, 05:26:42 PM »
The Ten Commandments and Christ's commandments to love are in someway binding upon the Christian.  I am sure you wouldn't argue against that...

I'm sorry, Ian, but I would argue against that most strenuously. How can I be bound to that from which I have been discharged, to that to which I am dead, free from that which held me captive, and which I no longer serve? Instead they are written in my heart by grace through faith, by which means alone, they are fulfilled. 

Blessings.

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2007, 05:42:01 PM »
Matt:

Since I started the thread, thanks for bringing it back.  I am delighted that you experienced grace on Divine Mercy Sunday.  My reason for bringing the news release from ZENIT is the whole indulgence thing.  I wish the whole thing would go away, so we Evangelical and Roman Catholics can get serious about working out our differences and coming together when we can do so in integrity.

As long as indulgences and purgatory continue to be on "the books", though clearly not in THE BOOK, I suspect we shall remain at more than arm's length and continue to throw darts at each other (actually, they tend to ignore us pretty easily, we keep thinking it's 1517).

frluther1517

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Re: Divine Mercy Sunday This is a test...
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2007, 05:42:29 PM »

I'm sorry, Ian, but I would argue against that most strenuously. How can I be bound to that from which I have been discharged, to that to which I am dead, free from that which held me captive, and which I no longer serve? Instead they are written in my heart by grace through faith, by which means alone, they are fulfilled. 

Blessings.

Because Christ said so.....

Are you telling me we don't have to Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind?  Do we not have to love even our enemies??  My peccatorhood is really enjoying this!