Author Topic: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case  (Read 54362 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2012, 01:53:14 PM »
I don't think that it can be reasonably disputed that the United States still has a ways to go to achieve true racial justice.  There still are places and times when blacks, especially young black men are treated with unjustified suspicion simply because they are black.  Blacks bear a disproportionate share of poverty and incarceration in the United States.  Educational achievement for blacks lags behind other racial groups.  Why is this?  There are many reasons, some with historical roots that go back to before the Civil War and Emancipation.  There has been systematic and systemic racism.  But there has also been developments within the black community that have held young blacks back.  A distrust of education achievement (acting white or talking white) and glorification of the gangsta persona and macho misogyny as exemplified in some rap music and musicians.  With conventional means of advancement difficult (something that needs to be corrected) the illegal routes to the "good life" have been celebrated.  The problems are complex and multifaceted - solutions will be the same.  We will not solve the lingering problems of racism by either dening they exist or simply demonizing another race as the cause of all problems and as evil simply because someone is of that race.
 
George Zimmermann has been tried and convicted by the media and the mob as surely as any black was tried and convicted by lynch mobs of old.  Is that any better now that it is a non-black demonized by blacks than it was when the roles were reversed?  There is an older couple in Florida hiding out in a hotel for fear of their lives because their son is William George Zimmermann (no relation to the accused shooter), had lived there at one time, and the address was confused as that for George Zimmermann, pick up by movie director Spike Lee and tweeted to all his followers.  Justice?  Are they simply paying the just penalty for being white (if they are white, not at all clear)?
 
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Dadoo

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 02:05:00 PM »
Oh . . . Come on!!!!!!! No!!!!!

http://townhall.com/video/congressman-bobby-rush-thrown-off-house-floor-over-hoodie-meltdown


This is now officially a circus!

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peter_speckhard

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 02:11:35 PM »
I don't think that it can be reasonably disputed that the United States still has a ways to go to achieve true racial justice.  There still are places and times when blacks, especially young black men are treated with unjustified suspicion simply because they are black.  Blacks bear a disproportionate share of poverty and incarceration in the United States.  Educational achievement for blacks lags behind other racial groups.  Why is this?  There are many reasons, some with historical roots that go back to before the Civil War and Emancipation.  There has been systematic and systemic racism.  But there has also been developments within the black community that have held young blacks back.  A distrust of education achievement (acting white or talking white) and glorification of the gangsta persona and macho misogyny as exemplified in some rap music and musicians.  With conventional means of advancement difficult (something that needs to be corrected) the illegal routes to the "good life" have been celebrated.  The problems are complex and multifaceted - solutions will be the same.  We will not solve the lingering problems of racism by either dening they exist or simply demonizing another race as the cause of all problems and as evil simply because someone is of that race.
 
George Zimmermann has been tried and convicted by the media and the mob as surely as any black was tried and convicted by lynch mobs of old.  Is that any better now that it is a non-black demonized by blacks than it was when the roles were reversed?  There is an older couple in Florida hiding out in a hotel for fear of their lives because their son is William George Zimmermann (no relation to the accused shooter), had lived there at one time, and the address was confused as that for George Zimmermann, pick up by movie director Spike Lee and tweeted to all his followers.  Justice?  Are they simply paying the just penalty for being white (if they are white, not at all clear)?
 
Dan
It is true that if Zimmerman were black and Martin Hispanic or white and the media were treating it this way, all the outrage would directed against the trial-by-media, presumption of guilt, and the underlying racist assumption that a black man getting beat up by a white man should have just sat there than taken it rather than pulling a gun. But history plays a big part in how we interpret these things, and it is (sadly) a mainstream opinion that justice ought not be blind.   

Suspicion cuts both ways, but the suspicions of the majority actually carry much more cultural weight and do more damage. I remember as a vicar taking the junior high kids to camp in October. We were mostly white with with a few African-Americans, one of whose fathers volunteered to be a driver. The camp was way out in rural Illinois and it got dark early. This black man was visibly nervous and uncomfortable and practically peeled out after dropping off the kids. Later he explained that from what he knew of very rural farm country (where he had never been after dark) he was in danger from shot-gun wielding, racist farmers. Obviously he was going by false stereotypes every bit as much as the white person who won't go into a black neighborhood. The difference is that the suspicions of the black man do not harm the white farmers to the same degree that the suspicions of the farmers harm the black man. It is not a moral or intellectual difference but simply a result of who is in the majority. The suspicious white farmer ends up living in the whole of the nation, with little pockets of places he is afraid to go. The suspicious black urban-dweller ends up living in those pockets surrounded by vast areas where he is afraid to go. There is a big difference between feeling comfortable only in a few neighborhoods and feeling comfortable anywhere except those neighborhoods.   

George Erdner

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 02:11:50 PM »
I don't think that it can be reasonably disputed that the United States still has a ways to go to achieve true racial justice. 

Especially if we cannot even agree what "true racial justice" is. And especially if some people are considered members of "protected" minorities, while others are members of non-protected minorities.
 
I think that the day we have real "racial justice" is when a white man can get into a fight with a black man and everyone who sees it will agree that it was because the white man simply didn't like that one particular black man, not because he was a black man, but just because the one guy simply didn't like the other guy.
 
When we can say, "This evil guy hurt this innocent guy", and only care about who was evil and who was innocent and not care or comment about what race either one was, then we'll have "racial justice" of the kind you speak of. As long as society keeps feeding the climate of racial division, including the ill-advised pleas to end it while simultaneously fomenting it, then it will remain a blot on our society.
 

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2012, 02:54:00 PM »
Here is the Presiding Bishop's words on the subject:

Presiding Bishop Hanson's text remains in italics. My comments are in plain text.
 
In  the wake of Trayvon Martin's tragic death, I call upon members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to join in public lament and to ask searching questions as we renew our commitment to act courageously and to work tirelessly for racial justice.
 
So, what is "racial justice"? Is it, "the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments", based on someones race? Is it, "the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity"? by returning the days of "separate but equal" when there were different laws based on peoples' race? If he is calling on us to work "tirelessly for racial justice", then what exactly is it we're working for?

With all who mourn Trayvon's death we cry, "Lord, have mercy." For all who suffer the wounds that racism and violence infect we pray, "Christ, have mercy." For our turning God's gift of diversity into cause for distrust and division we plead, "Lord, have mercy." Who is more equipped to lament such agony, rather than deny it, than a people of the cross who trust that ultimately the power of God's love will reign?

While Martin's death was a tragedy, all deaths are tragedies. What makes this one worth special attention, aside from the usual gaggle of exploiters like Sharpton, Jackson, Lee and others seeing an opportunity to exploit this tragedy for their own personal enrichment?

May the sorrow and anger surrounding Trayvon's death move us to ask searching questions. How much longer shall any young person live in fear (and be feared) because of the color of their skin? Are we who are white ready to confront and lay down our power and privilege for the sake of a more just and inclusive society? Are we as a nation ready to reform our criminal justice system which "the cumulative effects of bias in the system as a whole have led to intolerably harmful effects on minority communities" ("ELCA Draft Social Statement on Criminal Justice").

Martin was shot by an Hispanic. Under normal circumstances, Zimmerman would be the beneficiary of special consideration because of his "race". But, in this situation, his membership in the Hispanic racial minority is set aside, and he's accorded full status as a Caucasian. Why? Also note that once again, he is calling for a return to the evil practices of the past of having separate laws for people of different races, which is the very antithesis of any sort of racial equality. A true system of justice (using that word in it's real, original sense) would be totally and absolutely color blind. It cannot include special laws for members of one group but not for another.

Trayvon's death has emboldened the movement for racial justice. It calls for commitment from us. Now is the time for us as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to live up to the commitments we made in the social statement, "Freed in Christ: Race, Ethnicity and Culture" (1993). We said we will "model an honest engagement with issues of race, ethnicity and culture, by being a community of mutual conversation, mutual correction, and mutual consolation" and further that we will "participate in identifying the demands of justice, and work with others who would have justice for all."

And what does he mean by "social justice"? How can he speak of claiming that the ELCA will "participate in identifying the demands of justice, and work with others who would have justice for all." when he aligns himself with people who are the enemies of true justice, like Sharpton, Jackson, and Lee?

Trayvon's death calls us to act courageously and to work tirelessly for racial justice. Such courage comes from the confidence of faith trusting that "he [Christ Jesus] is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us" (Ephesians 2:14 NRSV).

So, doesn't that mean that we should "act courageously and to work tirelessly" to see to it that Zimmerman gets a fair and impartial trial, and is only judged on whether he is guilty or innocent of committing murder, no more and no less, with Zimmerman's race and/or ethnicity ignored? Where is the call for "justice" and "equality" in judging Zimmerman?

Let us together courageously engage in God’s work of restoring and reconciling communities. Let us together pursue justice and work for peace no matter how long the journey or wide the chasm. Let us tear down the walls we erect to divide us and turn those walls into tables of conversation and reconciliation.

 
Where does this come from? One person killed another person. The killer should not have killed. The victim should not have been the victim. That's a sin that goes back to Cain and Abel. What makes this a matter of "community"? No one other than Zimmerman killed anyone in this particular case. No one other than Martin died in this particular case. It's about two people, a perpetrator and a victim. Instead of empty platitudes about tearing down walls, why doesn't he start by actually taking down a few bricks by addressing this as an issue of one person harming another, and toning down the divisive rhetoric this statement is so full of?

In this season of Lent, let us repent and be turned by God toward our neighbor. Let us humbly confess that racism, both blatant and subtle, denies the reconciling work of the cross. Let us trust in God’s promise of forgiveness that frees us from the enslavement of racism. Let us live in the power and promise of Christ’s resurrection.

And let us not forget that attempting to cloud this issue with the misapplied principal of "racism" is itself an encouragement to continue to see each other as faceless members of different groups instead of seeing each and every person as a unique individual. Maybe he should start by confessing that his statement is loaded with racism of the subtle kind he refers to in his second sentence. Let him heed his own words, and repent of this racist and divisive statement.


FIFY... 

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Don Whitbeck

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2012, 03:01:48 PM »
Should people with poor judgment carry guns?  grabau

I guess you never heard of a police officer using poor judgment in shooting someone? As well as a soldier, Marine, or security guard.  People make poor judgments all of the time, whether carry a gun or not.  People, who drive drunk, kill people 24/7, drive even when they don't have a driver license, because it was revoked, or taken away from them for some other reason. Is that considering poor judgment? Also, you don't have to have a gun to kill some one. Although, in Detroit, one can purchase one of your choice; off any school play ground or else where, if you have the right connections.  I think that is true of most cities within the USA. Gun buy backs are at best a complete failure. Only honest law abiding citizens turn in there guns. No criminal will be in line to turn his gun in.

I think the race card is over blown here. So do a lot of black people who have stated so on TV. Our President has done nothing to bring this country together, but has done everything to pull us apart in many ways. 

We no longer have real journalist on the news anymore, just talking heads, reading off a teleprompter. The news is all about a big show, and ratings, and have truths, of which most of it is one sided.

I've worked in the Criminal Justice System. It's not perfect by any means, but it's better then any other in world.  Why do we have so many blacks in our prisons? It’s because they been arrested, convicted, and sent to prison for their crimes against society.  Their own poor choices put them in prison.  Is the system perfect no it's not; no system is, including our wonderful Christian Religions?  We all have fallen short, because we are all sinners.

We have killings in Detroit 24/7.  Last year Detroit was named murder capital of the world, as well as the two previous years. Where were Sharpton, Jackson, and Lee?  We had demonstrations in Detroit, and we have women yelling at these people asking them why you weren’t out here when my baby was killed, or my child, or my brother, or husband or wife.

One black man stated it best. Blacks killings blacks in not a concern, Black killing whites is not a concern to us, its when a white person kills a black person; that is a concern to us!

We don’t know all of the facts. Even when a witness came forward to indicate that young black man was beating on the other man, the main press didn't report it.  The press is part of the problem. This was stated by a black man. This guy will never obtain a fair or impartial trial.

We have a similar law in Michigan, however, when one is running from you, you can shoot him, even if he shots you first, unless he turns and you fear your life is in danger of being shot again.  As well, one must go through gun handlers training, as well as a class that covers what you can do and can't do regarding deadly force.  If anything the law in FL needs to look at again, and the author of the FL bill has promised that they will look at it and change it.  So the law as it is written will stand in the shooter defense to some extent I believe.

Seems that Bp Hanson statements fall short, way short.  If this statement has been in effect since 1993, seems that the ELCA has fallen way short of its stated goals. Maybe it was time to pull it out and dust it off. I was a member of the ELCA during that time, and I never even heard of it, like many of the ELCA's social  statements. 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 03:16:06 PM by Confessional Lutheran »
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George Erdner

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2012, 03:51:15 PM »
FIFY... 

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

That's easy for you to say.

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2012, 04:16:18 PM »
"Fixed it For You"???  Yeah, it's easy for me to say...

But then again, I asked at the outset that propper titles be used where applicable.  So yes...  It was easy for me to say.

Please note, George, (Mr. Erdner if you like) I did not make any other comments or additions to your post...  ALL I did was add in the honorific for the sake of proper etiquette and the hopes that we would not get into the usual nastiness that so often accompanies these things. 

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 04:18:53 PM by A Catholic Lutheran »

SmithL

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2012, 04:26:46 PM »
Should people with poor judgment carry guns?  grabau
Beating on someone who has a gun shows pretty poor judgement.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2012, 04:45:29 PM »
"Fixed it For You"??? 

Thanks for expanding my textese/blogese vocabulary.

I had N (letter after E) I.
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A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2012, 04:55:09 PM »
"Fixed it For You"??? 

Thanks for expanding my textese/blogese vocabulary.

I had N (letter after E) I.

For the longest time, I would see this and I was pretty sure that it had to do with some sort of other four-lettered-"F" word, followed by the word "you."  But I felt too sheepish to actually ask. 

Then one day, someone less sheepish than myself asked the question, and I found out it was short-hand for "Fixed It For You" as a way to correct some innaccuracy in a post and still call attention to it (politely) so that the mistake was not continued.  It was intended to be slightly less pedantic than scolding George for not observing my request.  I figured George, being worldly and skilled, would recognize the shorthand...

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

George Erdner

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2012, 05:29:41 PM »
"Fixed it For You" ???  Yeah, it's easy for me to say...

But then again, I asked at the outset that propper titles be used where applicable.  So yes...  It was easy for me to say.


So that's what FIFY meant.
 
Here's the thing. You asked. That means you made a request. There are two responses to such a request: yes or no. My response was no.
 
I'll also not say anything about "propper" titles.

SCPO

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2012, 05:30:22 PM »
Never said we should discuss every case. But there is a difference between discussing every case and simply asking what makes this case different.

      Here is another case that probably won't get much attention outside of Detroit; but I can't help but wonder if the intruder (s) were armed.  Then again, perhaps the intruders were not youths.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120328/METRO01/203280394/Detroit-senior-kills-break-suspect-long-can-fight-back-will-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE


George Erdner

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2012, 05:50:17 PM »
Never said we should discuss every case. But there is a difference between discussing every case and simply asking what makes this case different.

      Here is another case that probably won't get much attention outside of Detroit; but I can't help but wonder if the intruder (s) were armed.  Then again, perhaps the intruders were not youths.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120328/METRO01/203280394/Detroit-senior-kills-break-suspect-long-can-fight-back-will-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

The age of the intruders, or whether or not they were armed is irrelevant. They made the decision to break into someone else's home. One of them received justice immediately. I pray that God has mercy on the intruder's soul, and I am grateful on behalf of Mr. White that he was able to arrange for that intruder to get to experience God's mercy face-to-face.
 
It's sad that a human being died, even under these circumstances. Suicide is not a good thing. Breaking into the home of someone with the means of defending himself is an act of suicide by the person doing the breaking in. But please, everyone, spare us any platitudes about it being society or racists or any other such hogwash that's responsible for this incident happening. Several persons decided to commit a sinful act. One of them died as a result. Period. The people breaking in and the victim who defended himself are all individuals. Let's leave it at that.
 
I hope Sharpton, Jackson, or Lee don't get wind of this story. Given the name of the man who defended himself, I'm sure they'd like to spin the story as "White kills African-American youth".
 

Don Whitbeck

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Re: ELCA PB weighs in on Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2012, 06:24:37 PM »
Never said we should discuss every case. But there is a difference between discussing every case and simply asking what makes this case different.

      Here is another case that probably won't get much attention outside of Detroit; but I can't help but wonder if the intruder (s) were armed.  Then again, perhaps the intruders were not youths.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120328/METRO01/203280394/Detroit-senior-kills-break-suspect-long-can-fight-back-will-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

If the guy was stupid enough to open a gated door, and then kick in the door, he got what he deserved.  So many in Detroit, sorry to say don't live to tell about that experience.  As the man said, the cops found a gun on him, and I dare say he wouldn’t had a second thought about using it, on the owner or his wife. The sad thing is that he was only 18 year old, and the other two got away.

The Voice of God will NEVER Contradict the Word of God