Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 30664 times)

Mike Bennett

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #285 on: November 01, 2010, 05:59:57 PM »
Oh my goodness, Pastor.  "The reason was not because they were ungodly?"  "They probably worshipped pagan gods?"

My point is that I don't find anything in the text -- in fact, I just read Joshua 1-6 -- and still find nothing that declares they were ungodly or that they worshipped pagan gods. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.


If you were only permitted to read Joshua 1-6 you could in good conscience say "Maybe they did.  Maybe they didn't."  But we get to read the rest of Scripture.  And we get to read outside Scripture too.  So we can't in good conscience say, "Maybe they didn't."

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Mike Bennett

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #286 on: November 01, 2010, 06:02:03 PM »
Oh my goodness, Pastor.  "The reason was not because they were ungodly?"  "They probably worshipped pagan gods?"

What I did read is: Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the Lord had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until they had crossed over, their hearts melted in fear and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites" (Josh 5:1 TNIV).


Yep.  And Judas Iscariot didn't have the courage to even live after he did what he did.  St. Peter repented after he'd done his bad.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #287 on: November 01, 2010, 06:02:53 PM »

I don't think I have ever "lost" a parishioner because I did not "support life" strongly enough.

No, just a potential future parishioner (or more).   ;)

Mike Bennett

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #288 on: November 01, 2010, 06:06:37 PM »

Compare Joshua with his army coming into the foreign land and Jonah coming into the Assyrian (a traditional enemy of Israel) capital city of Ninevah by himself. Joshua kills everyone. Jonah converts everyone (even when Jonah didn't want to).


And the key difference I find is that God commanded Joshua to do one thing and Jonah to do another.  

We can read further in each account to learn what happened after (a) Israel stopped obeying God's command regarding Canaan and (b) Jonah (kicking and screaming) did obey God's command regarding Ninevah.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Richard Johnson

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #289 on: November 01, 2010, 06:23:13 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

That's pretty much what I thought, too.   :P

Richard, can I nominate myself for the "Most Improved in Showing Admirable Restraint" category here on ALPB?

 :)

Well, it's a free country . . .  ;D
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

LutherMan

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #290 on: November 01, 2010, 06:25:08 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

That's pretty much what I thought, too.   :P

Richard, can I nominate myself for the "Most Improved in Showing Admirable Restraint" category here on ALPB?

 :)

Well, it's a free country . . .  ;D
His polemics have been softer and less harsh.  Them butterfly kisses seem to be paying off.   ;D

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #291 on: November 01, 2010, 07:31:37 PM »
If this is ELCA pastoral care, I sure hope others will step up on here to make up for your approach. 


Please remember, Sister Kim, should you skim through the responses to your testimony in this topic that among those who thanked you for your powerful story were other ELCA pastors, even some of whom participate in Lutherans for Life. 

And, alas, some of whom receive similar back-handed "compliments" from colleagues in other settings when we share similar stories.

Christe eleison, Steven+
simul iustus et peccator
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #292 on: November 01, 2010, 07:37:04 PM »

Should I apologize for quoting scriptures?


Satan quoted the scriptures to Jesus, too.
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ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #293 on: November 01, 2010, 07:40:19 PM »
Comment win!

Dan Fienen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #294 on: November 01, 2010, 08:25:09 PM »
Oh my goodness, Pastor.  "The reason was not because they were ungodly?"  "They probably worshipped pagan gods?"

My point is that I don't find anything in the text -- in fact, I just read Joshua 1-6 -- and still find nothing that declares they were ungodly or that they worshipped pagan gods. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.

What I did read is: Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the Lord had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until they had crossed over, their hearts melted in fear and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites" (Josh 5:1 TNIV).

Who might be more sinful than a prostitute who had her own house of prostitution? And she is a liar, albeit she lies to save the Israelite spies. Yet, if Rahab can be saved, why couldn't all the other sinners in Jericho? We've already been told that they don't want to the fight the Israelites.

Quote
Do the words "First Commandment" (the foundation of alll the Commandments) and "Gross Idolotry" ring a bell?  Canaanite fertility cults, ritual prostitution, cult of the dead, and sacrifice of children? 

Where in Joshua 1-6 are we told that the people of Jericho or Ai were doing all of this?

Quote
And the accounts throughout Joshua, Judges, and the rest of the OT of Israel's disobedience to the command, because they wanted to be "good neighbors" don't you know (sound like Scandanavian Lutherans for goodness sake) and the consequences (which God knew about in advance) of living cheek by jowl with idoloters? 

Compare Joshua with his army coming into the foreign land and Jonah coming into the Assyrian (a traditional enemy of Israel) capital city of Ninevah by himself. Joshua kills everyone. Jonah converts everyone (even when Jonah didn't want to).
I'm not sure that you could find a court that would want jurisdiction, but if you want to accuse God of being unfair to the Canaanites and indict Him for murder and attempted genocide - go for it.  You would have plenty of company.  It is on the militant atheistic hit parade.

Or perhaps you are using this to argue that we cannot really trust the Bible to give us history.  Or that God is OK with murder as long as it serves a practical purpose (as arbortion would usually be considered to be - a practical and relatively easy solution to a problem).  Or, what are you getting at.

Or are these just comments that really are there to serve no purpose other than to rile others up and to show how independently minded you are?

What is your point or are these points pointless?

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #295 on: November 01, 2010, 09:06:05 PM »

Should I apologize for quoting scriptures?


Satan quoted the scriptures to Jesus, too.

And Jesus quoted some back. So, if I am in the role of Satan, others should be quoting scriptures to show where anything I've said is wrong.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #296 on: November 01, 2010, 09:07:34 PM »
What is your point or are these points pointless?

The question was asked if God ever approved the killing of children. I quoted scriptures where the answer has to be "yes".
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #297 on: November 01, 2010, 09:14:16 PM »
If this is ELCA pastoral care, I sure hope others will step up on here to make up for your approach. 


Please remember, Sister Kim, should you skim through the responses to your testimony in this topic that among those who thanked you for your powerful story were other ELCA pastors, even some of whom participate in Lutherans for Life. 

And, alas, some of whom receive similar back-handed "compliments" from colleagues in other settings when we share similar stories.

Christe eleison, Steven+
simul iustus et peccator

Yikes . . . begging your pardon!  I generalized while in the midst of seeing red and responding.  Forgive me . . .  Please know how thankful I am for you all and your commitment to Life!

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #298 on: November 01, 2010, 09:15:34 PM »
What is your point or are these points pointless?

The question was asked if God ever approved the killing of children. I quoted scriptures where the answer has to be "yes".

That was not MY question . . .

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #299 on: November 01, 2010, 09:25:05 PM »

And Jesus quoted some back. So, if I am in the role of Satan, others should be quoting scriptures to show where anything I've said is wrong.


Not for the first time...

What comes to mind is the account of Jesus and the man born blind in John 9.  Especially the conclusion:

Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, "Are we also blind?"

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains."

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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