Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31457 times)

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #270 on: November 01, 2010, 01:46:28 PM »
Should I apologize for quoting scriptures?

Only for quoting them out of context.  I did invite an LFL board member to read this thread just yesterday.  Whether or not he'll contribute to the discussion or not, I'm not sure, but I'm sure he'll take what he reads here back to the organization and make them aware of what has been said.

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #271 on: November 01, 2010, 01:48:35 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

That's pretty much what I thought, too.   :P

Richard, can I nominate myself for the "Most Improved in Showing Admirable Restraint" category here on ALPB?

 :)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #272 on: November 01, 2010, 01:52:04 PM »
Should I apologize for quoting scriptures?

Only for quoting them out of context.

What is out of context about the quotes? I answered your question if it can be shown in scriptures that God approved the killing of children (after birth). Of course, you can present arguments why these texts do not say that the Israelite army really killed children. (I can argue that, but it comes from the use of critical tools that LCMS eschews.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

G.Edward

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #273 on: November 01, 2010, 01:54:11 PM »
If I might make an attempt to get this thread back toward Pr. Salzman's original intent (I think): With all the talk of not "cooperating in externals" on the part of some LC-MS folk, and the concerns expressed that working together might simply be too difficult, I'm wondering if an ELCA someone completely and unambiguously pro-life would find LFL completely welcoming, or would there be other issues (not related to abortion), theological,social or political, for which there might be unspoken yet perceptible disapproval?

I really don't know...just trying to get us back on track a bit.

Well, I decided to test the the waters.  I looked through the LFL web site http://www.lutheransforlife.org/ and it looked legitimate, respectful, and truthful.  So I searched for a chapter in my area.  The closest seems to be about an hour away - not too bad for living in the middle of nowhere.  Next I thought I'd give the national office a call (1-888-364-LIFE) and found everyone I talked with to be pleasant, patient, and welcoming.  They're sending me some information on building awareness and starting a chapter.  I'll post again when it comes.

G.Edward

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #274 on: November 01, 2010, 01:56:13 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

That's pretty much what I thought, too.   :P

Richard, can I nominate myself for the "Most Improved in Showing Admirable Restraint" category here on ALPB?

 :)

You've got my vote!

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #275 on: November 01, 2010, 01:58:28 PM »
I am trying. I hope people notice!

Bishop Barbie's ministrations have been so helpful.

Butterfly kisses to all.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #276 on: November 01, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »
Well, I decided to test the the waters.  I looked through the LFL web site http://www.lutheransforlife.org/ and it looked legitimate, respectful, and truthful.  So I searched for a chapter in my area.  The closest seems to be about an hour away - not too bad for living in the middle of nowhere.  Next I thought I'd give the national office a call (1-888-364-LIFE) and found everyone I talked with to be pleasant, patient, and welcoming.  They're sending me some information on building awareness and starting a chapter.  I'll post again when it comes.

Wow, just wow!   ;D ;D ;D

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #277 on: November 01, 2010, 02:35:05 PM »
"Many, if not most" is quite a different claim from "all". It's the "all" that I objected to. I can agree with the assessment that many, if not most, have long-term consequences.

No, I assure you all have long-term consequences.  They either deal with their guilt and grief and seek forgiveness or they do not.  Those who do not seek it have far more greater than long-term consequences to deal with . . . they have eternal consequences.  Do you think I stay on here and argue with you fine gents for any other reason than this?

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #278 on: November 01, 2010, 02:43:18 PM »
Are you familiar with post-abortion research?  It's an honest question.

No, I'm not.

Here are some links for you then:

Neutral:
http://www.afterabortion.com/faq.html

Lutheran:
http://www.word-of-hope.org/what-are-the-symptoms-of-distress.html

Christian in General:
http://www.inourmidst.com/reactions_effects.htm#pas

I would hope any caring pastor would warn a woman of this before having an abortion, even if he or she accepts abortion on demand.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 02:47:42 PM by Kim Schave »

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #279 on: November 01, 2010, 03:22:40 PM »
Should I apologize for quoting scriptures?

Only for quoting them out of context.

What is out of context about the quotes? I answered your question if it can be shown in scriptures that God approved the killing of children (after birth). Of course, you can present arguments why these texts do not say that the Israelite army really killed children. (I can argue that, but it comes from the use of critical tools that LCMS eschews.)

Uh, because God commanded this to be done.  Perhaps Sodom and Gomorrah was still pretty fresh in God's mind.  God gives life and can command it to be taken away.  I maintain that I do not have this authority, and if I try to exert it myself, I'm no better than Eve in wanting to be like God.  Of course, I believe Eve is a real example for us, not just a nice story to go back to now and again.  I choose to learn from her example (when my own pesky sin doesn't get in the way).

Mike Bennett

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #280 on: November 01, 2010, 03:35:22 PM »

Why would killing the children of ungodly nations be any different? I'm sure that you wouldn't say that abortion for non-believers is OK.

Consider Deut. 2:34: "At that time we [Moses and his army] took all his towns and completely destroyed them -- men, women and children. We left no survivors" (NRSV).

Or Deut. 3:6 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we had done to King Sihon of Heshbon, in each city utterly destroying men, women, and children" (NRSV).

Joshua's army destroyed every living thing in Jericho -- "men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys" (Josh 6:21). While neither "children" nor "the young" are mentioned in the destruction of Ai, we are told that all who lived in Ai were destroyed (Josh 8:26).

The reason for the entire destruction of these cities and their people was not because they were ungodly (even though they probably worshiped pagan gods,) but because of ḥerem, a Hebrew word that carries the idea of "to place under the ban," "to utterly destroy," "to be devoted to destruction." We are also told in Deut 2:30b before the destruction: "For the LORD your God had hardened his [King Sihon of Heshbon's] spirit and made his heart defiant in order to hand him over to you, as he has now done."

Israel's treatment of the children of some of those they conquered was not good.

Oh my goodness, Pastor.  "The reason was not because they were ungodly?"  "They probably worshipped pagan gods?"

It happens my Sunday School class had a lesson yesterday on the battle of Jericho, which I chose to extend to include Joshua 1-6, with an added preview of "Why did God order the destruction of all those Canaanites, and is that His command for all time?"  And then in the p.m. started preparing for next week's lesson on Deborah.  So I'm fairly freshly studied up on the answer to your riddle.

Do the words "First Commandment" (the foundation of alll the Commandments) and "Gross Idolotry" ring a bell?  Canaanite fertility cults, ritual prostitution, cult of the dead, and sacrifice of children?  And the accounts throughout Joshua, Judges, and the rest of the OT of Israel's disobedience to the command, because they wanted to be "good neighbors" don't you know (sound like Scandanavian Lutherans for goodness sake) and the consequences (which God knew about in advance) of living cheek by jowl with idoloters? 

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #281 on: November 01, 2010, 03:55:14 PM »
Dearest friends and faithful remnant within the ELCA, please do consider availing yourself of LFL's website to become better informed on the issue, even if you don't have an interest in joining this or any other pro-life group.  We just celebrated Reformation yesterday whereby we can be thankful that God put the Bible into the hands of the common man through Martin Luther's efforts.  Please open yours and compare it to what your pastor is teaching.  Thank him or her for their faithfulness if they support Life in their preaching and teaching.  It's not an easy job in some circles as I'm finding out both on and off this forum.

Here's a link to an article that takes a look at the history of abortion being known as a sin within the early church.
http://www.lutheransforlife.org/article/abortion-and-the-message-of-the-church/
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 04:03:11 PM by Kim Schave »

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #282 on: November 01, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »
Deaconess Schave writes:
Dearest friends and faithful remnant within the ELCA, please do consider availing yourself of LFL's website....
I ask:
Only the "faithful remnant" or could those of us deemed "unfaithful" visit as well?

Deaconess Schave writes:
Please open yours and compare it to what your pastor is teaching.  Thank him or her for their faithfulness if they support Life in their preaching and teaching.
I comment:
I "support Life" in my preaching and teaching. I have raised the abortion issue, the capital punishment issue, and the issue of our militarism and use of deadly force domestically and internationally.
And yet I do not oppose the current abortion laws, except for the ones that would withhold contraceptive information to teenagers and others.
I don't think I have ever "lost" a parishioner because I did not "support life" strongly enough.

LutherMan

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #283 on: November 01, 2010, 05:25:21 PM »
I ask:
Only the "faithful remnant" or could those of us deemed "unfaithful" visit as well?
I suppose you could, but when you say this, why bother?
Quote
And yet I do not oppose the current abortion laws, except for the ones that would withhold contraceptive information to teenagers and others.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #284 on: November 01, 2010, 05:48:47 PM »
Oh my goodness, Pastor.  "The reason was not because they were ungodly?"  "They probably worshipped pagan gods?"

My point is that I don't find anything in the text -- in fact, I just read Joshua 1-6 -- and still find nothing that declares they were ungodly or that they worshipped pagan gods. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.

What I did read is: Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the Lord had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until they had crossed over, their hearts melted in fear and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites" (Josh 5:1 TNIV).

Who might be more sinful than a prostitute who had her own house of prostitution? And she is a liar, albeit she lies to save the Israelite spies. Yet, if Rahab can be saved, why couldn't all the other sinners in Jericho? We've already been told that they don't want to the fight the Israelites.

Quote
Do the words "First Commandment" (the foundation of alll the Commandments) and "Gross Idolotry" ring a bell?  Canaanite fertility cults, ritual prostitution, cult of the dead, and sacrifice of children? 

Where in Joshua 1-6 are we told that the people of Jericho or Ai were doing all of this?

Quote
And the accounts throughout Joshua, Judges, and the rest of the OT of Israel's disobedience to the command, because they wanted to be "good neighbors" don't you know (sound like Scandanavian Lutherans for goodness sake) and the consequences (which God knew about in advance) of living cheek by jowl with idoloters? 

Compare Joshua with his army coming into the foreign land and Jonah coming into the Assyrian (a traditional enemy of Israel) capital city of Ninevah by himself. Joshua kills everyone. Jonah converts everyone (even when Jonah didn't want to).
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]