Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 32041 times)

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #255 on: November 01, 2010, 12:09:10 PM »
Any woman who thinks otherwise is suppressing a whole lot of guilt and shame.  The law is written on our hearts, and she knows instinctively that she has broken it.  Her body and soul both react to the unnatural act of an abortion because it goes against how she was created by God.

It is a comment like this, not your personal story, that spurs Charles and me to respond (and his biblical reference). You are judging all women who have had an abortion. You make unproven assumptions about all women who have had an abortion. Even if all the women whom you have counseled have a lot of guilt and shame -- the fact that they are coming for counseling indicates that they are not a random sampling of all women who have had an abortion.


Brian,

Are you familiar with post-abortion research?  It's an honest question.  If you're not, I'll point some out to you.  I suspect many, if not most, women feel a tremendous amount of relief when the crisis is averted in the immediate aftermath.  It is what I know about the long-term consequences of abortion that prompts me to make this claim.  Beyond my own claims, however, it is upon the Word of God that I base any and all claims I may make on this subject.  If someone can show me within Scripture that it is or ever was pleasing to God that the life of a child be taken before or after birth (apart from His command to do so when punishing un-Godly nations), I'll gladly consider the evidence.  So far as I have read, child sacrifice was not not looked upon favorably by Him.  Had un-Godly rulers prevailed in their quest to destroy a generation of infants, we wouldn't have the likes of the Baby Moses or the Christ Child, among others.

If there is a woman out there who has found God and His peace that surpasses all understanding post-abortion with no guilt for her action at all (i.e. she felt no need for repentance), I would love to hear her story.  I personally have never come across a case such as this in all my years of counseling on the issue (nor have I ever read about one).  I'm not as stubborn as I might appear; I can admit when I'm wrong.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 12:17:22 PM by Kim Schave »

Scott6

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #256 on: November 01, 2010, 12:25:16 PM »
Kim,

I wanted to let you know that your courageous sharing of your story has already been such a blessing to many. When I posted it on my blog and Facebook wall, I heard from a LOT of women who have struggled with similar issues. The stories came pouring out and the opportunity for sharing the comfort and hope found only, and always, in Christ were powerful and deeply moving to me.

So, thanks again for your powerful witness.

Blessings,
Paul

I join Paul in thanking you for it as it also brought to mind the children we've lost without ever being able to hold them.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #257 on: November 01, 2010, 12:31:05 PM »
I join Paul in thanking you for it as it also brought to mind the children we've lost without ever being able to hold them.

Oh, but the comfort we have knowing Jesus is holding them for us.   :)

Mike Bennett

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #258 on: November 01, 2010, 12:31:51 PM »

There is no doubt that there are many secure sinners.  Just as there are many that are terrified.  Those are certainly two responses to hearing the Law, with the latter receiving the pronouncement of forgiveness and the former continue to need to hear the Law.  If you object to this approach, then you are objecting to what is very basic to Lutheran thought -- the proclamation of Law and Gospel.


This reminder is one of the best things I've read in the past week.  And I've read a depressingly large amount of all sorts of stuff in the past week.

Thanks Scott.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #259 on: November 01, 2010, 12:44:26 PM »

There is no doubt that there are many secure sinners.  Just as there are many that are terrified.  Those are certainly two responses to hearing the Law, with the latter receiving the pronouncement of forgiveness and the former continue to need to hear the Law.  If you object to this approach, then you are objecting to what is very basic to Lutheran thought -- the proclamation of Law and Gospel.


This reminder is one of the best things I've read in the past week.  And I've read a depressingly large amount of all sorts of stuff in the past week.

Thanks Scott.

Mike Bennett

And this is a shining example of what I mentioned upthread about being blessed to know some pretty great pastors, though I don't officially "know" Pastor Yakimow apart from this forum.  It's not easy calling people to repentance or warning them of their errant ways.  I have firsthand knowledge that he is gifted in this art.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 12:47:39 PM by Kim Schave »

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #260 on: November 01, 2010, 12:46:14 PM »
Whoever said that Christian women who choose to have an abortion do not repent of their sins?
But other related issues loom, and I choose not to go there.

DeHall

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #261 on: November 01, 2010, 12:50:32 PM »
Whoever said that Christian women who choose to have an abortion do not repent of their sins?
But other related issues loom, and I choose not to go there.

No one.  If you've read the entries here and have come to the conclusion that SOMEONE has said this, I suggest you read the posts again.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #262 on: November 01, 2010, 12:53:34 PM »
Whoever said that Christian women who choose to have an abortion do not repent of their sins?
But other related issues loom, and I choose not to go there.

Charles, I am thankful that you qualified your experience with women for me.  I appreciate the witness and pastoral care that you provided them with if they were able to find forgiveness.

Lutheranistic

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #263 on: November 01, 2010, 01:03:13 PM »
If I might make an attempt to get this thread back toward Pr. Salzman's original intent (I think): With all the talk of not "cooperating in externals" on the part of some LC-MS folk, and the concerns expressed that working together might simply be too difficult, I'm wondering if an ELCA someone completely and unambiguously pro-life would find LFL completely welcoming, or would there be other issues (not related to abortion), theological,social or political, for which there might be unspoken yet perceptible disapproval?

I really don't know...just trying to get us back on track a bit.

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #264 on: November 01, 2010, 01:21:35 PM »
If I might make an attempt to get this thread back toward Pr. Salzman's original intent (I think): With all the talk of not "cooperating in externals" on the part of some LC-MS folk, and the concerns expressed that working together might simply be too difficult, I'm wondering if an ELCA someone completely and unambiguously pro-life would find LFL completely welcoming, or would there be other issues (not related to abortion), theological,social or political, for which there might be unspoken yet perceptible disapproval?

I really don't know...just trying to get us back on track a bit.

There are far more issues at stake than whether Lutherans for Life appears "welcoming" to people from the ELCA. Given that so many who know what Lutherans for Life actually does, I suspect that there are some in both the LC-MS and ELCA who are strongly anti-abortion who wouldn't care whether or not Lutherans for Life is welcoming or not. They might choose to become involved with some alternative anti-abortion organization that was more activist and less informational. When all is said and done, it's not the people who said things that have accomplished anything, it's the people who've done things.

I suspect (though I cannot prove it) that if someone who is anti-abortion were to sit down and decide which anti-abortion organization to affiliate with to reduce or eliminate abortions, and they made their own ranked list of what characteristics and anti-abortion group needs to be effective, and then evaluated all of the groups out there against that matrix of characteristics to select the best one to join, groups that were "mostly informational" might not be near the top. I also suspect (though I cannot prove it) that denominational affiliation would be pretty far down the list of characteristics, well below things like track record of effectiveness.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #265 on: November 01, 2010, 01:33:00 PM »
Are you familiar with post-abortion research?  It's an honest question.

No, I'm not.

Quote
I suspect many, if not most, women feel a tremendous amount of relief when the crisis is averted in the immediate aftermath.  It is what I know about the long-term consequences of abortion that prompts me to make this claim.  

"Many, if not most" is quite a different claim from "all". It's the "all" that I objected to. I can agree with the assessment that many, if not most, have long-term consequences.

Quote
Beyond my own claims, however, it is upon the Word of God that I base any and all claims I may make on this subject.  If someone can show me within Scripture that it is or ever was pleasing to God that the life of a child be taken before or after birth (apart from His command to do so when punishing un-Godly nations), I'll gladly consider the evidence.

Why would killing the children of ungodly nations be any different? I'm sure that you wouldn't say that abortion for non-believers is OK.

Consider Deut. 2:34: "At that time we [Moses and his army] took all his towns and completely destroyed them -- men, women and children. We left no survivors" (NRSV).

Or Deut. 3:6 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we had done to King Sihon of Heshbon, in each city utterly destroying men, women, and children" (NRSV).

Joshua's army destroyed every living thing in Jericho -- "men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys" (Josh 6:21). While neither "children" nor "the young" are mentioned in the destruction of Ai, we are told that all who lived in Ai were destroyed (Josh 8:26).

The reason for the entire destruction of these cities and their people was not because they were ungodly (even though they probably worshiped pagan gods,) but because of ḥerem, a Hebrew word that carries the idea of "to place under the ban," "to utterly destroy," "to be devoted to destruction." We are also told in Deut 2:30b before the destruction: "For the LORD your God had hardened his [King Sihon of Heshbon's] spirit and made his heart defiant in order to hand him over to you, as he has now done."

Israel's treatment of the children of some of those they conquered was not good.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #266 on: November 01, 2010, 01:37:54 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

Richard Johnson

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #267 on: November 01, 2010, 01:39:32 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

That's pretty much what I thought, too.   :P
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #268 on: November 01, 2010, 01:40:54 PM »
Oh. My. Goodness.

 >:(

That's pretty much what I thought, too.   :P

Should I apologize for quoting scriptures? Are either of you willing to argue that Israel's conquest of the land did not include the killing of children at God's command and because God hardened hearts?

If folks insist on taking passages of Leviticus literally, why not these passages in Deuteronomy and Joshua?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:43:26 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #269 on: November 01, 2010, 01:43:58 PM »
Are you referring to this case, or more generally? If the former, absolutely. If the latter, probably.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS