Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31473 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2010, 11:00:33 PM »
Again, I don't know what George is driving at with his participation in this topic.

He says that it is the LFL's fault that more ELCA congregations and pastors are not involved.
He says he won't lift a finger to start a LFL chapter in his own congregation.

No idea what he is talking about.

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #181 on: October 23, 2010, 11:28:58 PM »
George, anyone who thinks he can be pro-choice and pro-life would never be able to support the aims of Lutherans for Life, so again, what's the point of your remarks?

You are simply making no sense.

No one said "pro-choice and pro-life". What was said was "Pro choice and anti-abortion". That's something different.

And it's not about Lutherans For Life convincing people who are "Pro choice and anti-abortion" to join them. It is that dismissing and ridiculing any who hold the position of being "Pro choice and anti-abortion" can tend to make people in the ELCA who are both anti-abortion and anti-choice look for another, less rude and judgemental group of people to work with. It's not like there's a shortage of other alternative groups to work with.

There are plenty of others who think that position is wrong, who do not hold it, but who nevertheless would think twice about working with an organization in which many of the leaders would make such an attack on a position they disagree with. If that's how the people in the LC-MS dismiss other Lutherans they disagree with on one thing, how will they dismiss others they disagree with? For example, a member of the ELCA who wants to fight abortion might wonder would they be as rude and dismissive of them if they suggested that buying radio spots was a better and more effective use of funds than printing brochures that will sit in a literature bin for weeks and weeks without being read.

So they'll dismiss working with an organization that does share their Biblical view on the sanctity of life, but they'll remain part of an organization that completely goes against their view on the same issue (the ELCA church body).  That's logic I just can't wrap my little brain around, George.  It's easy for me to say that, I suppose, since I left the ELCA mostly over this issue.


Understand, Lutherans For Life ain't the only anti-abortion game in town. You folks don't have a monopoly on fighting abortion. There are lots and lots of organizations people can join to fight against abortion. If there are 47 other anti-abortion groups one can join to work on fighting against abortion, and someone joins one of them, that doesn't mean that they've "rejected" the other 46. You don't even have to join an organization to fight against abortion. You can do what I do and support candidates who include opposition to abortion among the many things that they stand for, and work on getting them elected.

I know more than a few people who are strongly anti-abortion who are atheists, secular humanists, or members of religions other than Christianity. Between them and all of the Christian people I know who oppose abortion and want to work against it, the primary factor in deciding which group to work with is which group they've heard of has the best track record of getting things accomplished. If I thought the most effective group to work with to fight abortion was the local chapter of the B'nai B'rith, then they're the people I'd work with.

As has been said on here by both LCMS folks and a couple of ELCA folks who have first-hand knowledge of LFL, nobody would mistreat an ELCA person interested in joining LFL or participating in an LFL event.  As I have mentioned previously on this thread, in all the realms of human care work that I've been a part of, no ministry is more unifying among Christians of ALL denominations than pro-life ministry (specifically a pregnancy resource center).  Hands down.  God works in amazing ways through those volunteers that are the last line of defense from Satan and his schemes.  Life or death hangs in the balance every day, and these people set aside their theological differences for the sake of sharing the love of Christ with mother and child (and dad if he comes). 

You're pushing me really close to that breaking point we discussed in another thread. I don't care about what people with first hand knowledge know. What matters most to people deciding whether or not to work with a group that's strongly identified with the LC-MS is what the people doing the deciding think they know about the LC-MS. I don't know how many times I can repeat that it's not about what the people who've entered through your door think about you, it's what the people who won't go through your door because of their misconceptions that are caused by things like Pastor Speckhard's insult to those who don't share his views. And I realize that he only said it in here, not to the world at large. But it is typical of the kind of statements that come from people in the LC-MS that perpetuate the bad reputation the LC-MS has to deal with.

The real question is why should anyone who has a plethora of choices of anti-abortion groups to join venture over into unknown territory to an organization with a bad reputation just to see if the reputation is true or not?

In less than five minutes I found these 17 organizations:

American Life League—Judy Brown's pro-life organization, parent to several other organizations
Americans United for Life—Defending life through litigation, legislation and education
Feminists for Life—Promoting authentic feminism that respects life and motherhood, honorary chair Patricia Heaton
Human Life International—Pro-life organization operating in countries around the world
L.E.A.R.N., Inc.—(Life Education and Resource Network) African-American pro-life group
Life Decisions International—Dedicated to fighting Planned Parenthood's anti-life agenda worldwide
Life Principles—Healing the culture by nurturing the princples that underlie the pro-life philosophy, founded by Robert Spitzer, SJ
March for Life—National headquarters for the annual March for Life on the Washington Mall
National Right to Life—One of the Nation's oldest pro-life education and lobbying organizations
Personhood USA—Advocating for pre-born children by coordinating efforts to establish legal "personhood" through peaceful activism and legislative efforts
Pharmacists For Life International—The 100% pro-life pharmicists group
Precious Life—Fighting to keep abortion out of Northern Ireland and shut down abortion-referral organizations
Roe No More Ministries—Website of Norma McCorvey, aka "Roe" from Roe v Wade
Silent Scream—Information and pictures on abortion and fetal development
STOPP Planned Parenthood—ALL's campaign to confront Planned Parenthood's pro-abortion, anti-chastity efforts
The Center for Bioethical Reform— Using graphic images to fight abortion
Vida Humana Internacional—HLI's Spanish language outreach, with comprehensive abortion information, crisis pregnancy resources and pro-life materials

Why should someone from the ELCA join Lutherans For Life when they can join any of those above, and the dozens and dozens of other groups anyone could find with a little bit more effort? You keep making impassioned pleas for people to fight abortion. OK, you've made your point. Now that I'm convinced I need to be a soldier in that war, convince me why I should enlist in Lutherans For Life instead of one of those other groups. What advantage is there to working through Lutherans For Life instead of some other group?

Has Lutherans For Life gotten more anti-abortion candidates elected to Congress? Has Lutherans For Life gotten any new judges appointed? What's Lutherans For Life's track record for accomplishment?

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2010, 11:39:23 PM »
George, which anti-abortion effort are you personally involved in and support with your time, talent and treasure? If LFL is not your personal cup of tea, care to share which one is, and why?

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #183 on: October 24, 2010, 12:05:04 AM »
George, which anti-abortion effort are you personally involved in and support with your time, talent and treasure? If LFL is not your personal cup of tea, care to share which one is, and why?

Asked and answered earlier.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #184 on: October 24, 2010, 12:19:26 AM »
Sorry, Brian, when she realizes (if she hasn't already) what a dreadful mistake she made in taking the life of an unborn baby, "trust" and "respect" are not going to be her words of choice for her pastor.  I strongly urge you to research information relating to post-abortion syndrome and seek her out for additional counsel.  It is the loving and pastoral thing to do, even if you neglected these duties on the front end. 

Isn't is possible for a woman to believe that she made the right decision to have an abortion -- especially when the decision was inline with her church's guidance?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #185 on: October 24, 2010, 12:21:12 AM »
We do not dictate the choice a woman must make. We provide "guidance". It is possible that a woman under the ELCA health plan could make a choice not in line with our guidance, we have agreed to pay for such choices.

Neither do we "dictate the choice a woman must make." But God does.

From the beginning of creation, God gave humans the right to make choices -- even if they are wrong ones -- and when we do that, God has offered us forgiveness.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #186 on: October 24, 2010, 12:42:27 AM »
Explain, Pastor Tibbetts, the allegedly failed attempts to "implement" the social statement. That implementation, of course, is in the hands of pastors, congregations, synods and social service agencies.

Thursday night and three pages earlier in this topic are too long ago for you to recall, eh?



Meanwhile, the following resolution was approved by the 2009 Northern Illinois Synod Assembly:

Quote
Prayer for the Unborn and for Women Facing Problematic Pregnancies

Whereas: “A Social Statement on Abortion” adopted by the ELCA Churchwide Assembly in 1991 affirmed that “our love for neighbor embraces especially those who are most vulnerable, including both the pregnant woman and the life in her womb;” and

Whereas:  Prayer is an indispensable aspect of Christian love for the neighbor – a fact elucidated by one Lutheran theologian when he wrote: “For by prayer love of neighbor is integrated into believers’ relation to God as participation in his love for the world.  Prayer prevents the practice of neighborly love from becoming simply our own moral work” (Wolfhart Pannenberg, Systematic Theology 3, p.205); and

Whereas:  A common resource for intercessory prayer in the liturgies of ELCA congregations, Sundays and Seasons, rarely if ever includes the unborn or women facing problematic pregnancies among the vulnerable for whom we are encouraged to pray;

Therefore Be It Resolved, that each year the congregations of this synod shall be reminded and encouraged, through Walking Together, to include on the Sunday nearest to March 25, The Annunciation of Our Lord, intercessions for the unborn and for women and their partners facing problematic pregnancies.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:57:10 AM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #187 on: October 24, 2010, 01:13:01 AM »
Sorry, Brian, when she realizes (if she hasn't already) what a dreadful mistake she made in taking the life of an unborn baby, "trust" and "respect" are not going to be her words of choice for her pastor.  I strongly urge you to research information relating to post-abortion syndrome and seek her out for additional counsel.  It is the loving and pastoral thing to do, even if you neglected these duties on the front end. 

Isn't is possible for a woman to believe that she made the right decision to have an abortion -- especially when the decision was inline with her church's guidance?

It's possible for anyone to believe anything, no matter how wrong it might be, for any number of reasons. Look at your own often stated judgements and interpretations.

LutherMan

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/23/ohio-mom-angry-judge-let-year-old-daughter-marry/

Ohio Judge Lets Pregnant Teen Marry Without Consent After Bride Says Parents Would Force Abortion

COLUMBUS, Ohio –  An Ohio judge allowed a pregnant 17-year-old to get married without her parents' consent after the bride-to-be said she could be forced to have an abortion if she stayed at home.
<snip>

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #189 on: October 24, 2010, 06:39:01 AM »
Sounds like the court supported the young woman's right to choose.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #190 on: October 24, 2010, 06:59:24 AM »
Isn't is possible for a woman to believe that she made the right decision to have an abortion -- especially when the decision was inline with her church's guidance?

Absolutely! Many do.  And they've been deceived by Satan just as Eve was that it was a good and salutary thing to do.  Then, if you review the post-abortion links I provided upthread, you'd come to understand how the guilt and shame manifests itself.  It may take years and years, but it happens.  Period.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #191 on: October 24, 2010, 07:00:28 AM »
We do not dictate the choice a woman must make. We provide "guidance". It is possible that a woman under the ELCA health plan could make a choice not in line with our guidance, we have agreed to pay for such choices.

Neither do we "dictate the choice a woman must make." But God does.

From the beginning of creation, God gave humans the right to make choices -- even if they are wrong ones -- and when we do that, God has offered us forgiveness.

And being sorry for our sins doesn't fit into the equation?  Hmmmm . . . what a nice pastor you must be.  I'll bet everyone likes you.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #192 on: October 24, 2010, 07:04:42 AM »
Deaconess Schave writes (re Pastor Stoffregen):
And being sorry for our sins doesn't fit into the equation?  Hmmmm . . . what a nice pastor you must be.  I'll bet everyone likes you.

I comment:
Cheap shot, deaconess. Unworthy of you.


LutherMan

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #193 on: October 24, 2010, 07:09:02 AM »
 And they've been deceived by Satan just as Eve was that it was a good and salutary thing to do.  

Ahhh, but belief in Satan is 'optional' in the ELCA.  Some believe this, while others believe that.
Quote
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Satan.aspx
Satan
 
Does this evil being exist?

We must begin by saying that there are ELCA Lutherans who understand Satan (or the Devil) to be a very real being, author of evil, prompter of sin, destroyer of humankind. Other ELCA Lutherans view Satan metaphorically — as the personification of evil forces in this world that oppose and obstruct God’s will in every age, be they human or spiritual. Adherents of both views would agree that sinful, evil forces do exist and oppose God’s will for humankind, that in God’s plan for humankind these forces were defeated on the cross, are under God’s power and authority, and will ultimately be destroyed under God’s judgement.
<snip>
 

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #194 on: October 24, 2010, 07:12:39 AM »
Understand, Lutherans For Life ain't the only anti-abortion game in town. You folks don't have a monopoly on fighting abortion.

I put forth the types of pro-life organizations above in another post.  LFL is an information clearinghouse for the most part.  THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD relates to LFL, so that is the organization being discussed.  Not yet has anyone said it's the only game in town.  And you say people don't get your point?

That's great that you support candidates who will work against those who are in favor of legalized abortion on demand.