Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31479 times)

LutherMan

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2010, 04:40:33 PM »
I am reminded to pray for the very salvation of some of the Lutheran pastors who participate in this forum.  It never ceases to amaze me or fill me with incredulity that I feel compelled to do so.
I also invite anyone so motivated, to pray for me.   I can always use general prayer.
Especially for obedience to the commandments.

kls

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2010, 04:45:51 PM »
We do not dictate the choice a woman must make. We provide "guidance". It is possible that a woman under the ELCA health plan could make a choice not in line with our guidance, we have agreed to pay for such choices.

Neither do we "dictate the choice a woman must make." But God does. I pray that all who will not speak His word of life on behalf of the voiceless unborn will come to repentance.

Indeed.  Silence is acceptance, and even worse, bankrolling is encouragement!

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17489
    • View Profile
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2010, 07:17:01 PM »
"Pro-choice and anti-abortion" is an intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position. Why be anti-abortion? Why make them rare? If the death of a baby is a factor in answering that, the pro-choice position crumbles under the weight of its own folly.

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2010, 07:49:08 PM »
"Pro-choice and anti-abortion" is an intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position. Why be anti-abortion? Why make them rare? If the death of a baby is a factor in answering that, the pro-choice position crumbles under the weight of its own folly.

The argument for pro-choice and still anti-abortion is based on whether or not the Kingdom of the Right should demand that the Kingdom of the Left enforce God's law. One can disagree about demanding that the Kingdom of the Left compels everyone to conform to God's Law, including those who do not believe in God. But it seems a bit excessive to call such a position "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". No one should call a position of being "pro charity for the poor but anti government redistribution of wealth programs" an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". It can be seen as an issue of who is the proper authority to enforce God's Law, God's church or human political institutions.

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2010, 08:08:35 PM »
The argument for pro-choice and still anti-abortion is based on whether or not the Kingdom of the Right should demand that the Kingdom of the Left enforce God's law. One can disagree about demanding that the Kingdom of the Left compels everyone to conform to God's Law, including those who do not believe in God. But it seems a bit excessive to call such a position "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". No one should call a position of being "pro charity for the poor but anti government redistribution of wealth programs" an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". It can be seen as an issue of who is the proper authority to enforce God's Law, God's church or human political institutions.

George, do you think that people have to believe in God before they can recognize killing another human being is wrong?

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17489
    • View Profile
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2010, 08:11:10 PM »
The argument for pro-choice and still anti-abortion is based on whether or not the Kingdom of the Right should demand that the Kingdom of the Left enforce God's law. One can disagree about demanding that the Kingdom of the Left compels everyone to conform to God's Law, including those who do not believe in God. But it seems a bit excessive to call such a position "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". No one should call a position of being "pro charity for the poor but anti government redistribution of wealth programs" an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". It can be seen as an issue of who is the proper authority to enforce God's Law, God's church or human political institutions.

George, do you think that people have to believe in God before they can recognize killing another human being is wrong?
That's the point. Are you really against all laws prohibiting murder merely because the Fifth Commandment is God's Law?

kls

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2010, 08:33:11 PM »
George, the whole point of those arguing against abortion is because of the love and compassion we have for an innocent child.  We also have love and compassion for the mother (and father) who will suffer greatly when she comes to the realization that she has killed her child.  As was just stated, we have laws put into place by our government to protect us all from being murdered.  That should carry over to the infants in a mothers' womb, and sadly, your church body could care less about both mother and child when they look the other way on the issue of abortion.  I will put forth this link to a video of a child at 8 weeks' gestation for anyone who still doubts that a child being formed in the womb is any less worthy of protection by our laws than you or I.  (This site even claims "bioethical neutrality" . . . interesting phrase.)  Maybe it's time the ELCA's position on abortion catch up with the technology.  The lies are becoming more difficult to hide behind with each new technological advance we see within the medical community.

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2010, 08:51:08 PM »
The argument for pro-choice and still anti-abortion is based on whether or not the Kingdom of the Right should demand that the Kingdom of the Left enforce God's law. One can disagree about demanding that the Kingdom of the Left compels everyone to conform to God's Law, including those who do not believe in God. But it seems a bit excessive to call such a position "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". No one should call a position of being "pro charity for the poor but anti government redistribution of wealth programs" an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". It can be seen as an issue of who is the proper authority to enforce God's Law, God's church or human political institutions.

George, do you think that people have to believe in God before they can recognize killing another human being is wrong?

I never said that. I never said that it was my personal position that the Kingdom of the Left shouldn't prevail upon the Kingdom of the Right to enforce God's laws. I was talking about the statement that the argument was an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". I believe that dismissing a valid but non-compelling argument in such a cavalier fashion is excessive and inaccurate. My point was that there is too much merit in that argument to dismiss it as an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". The worst that I believe that can be said about that position is that even though it has some merit, it doesn't have sufficient merit to prevail over the more compelling argument that all means are appropriate when innocent life is at stake.

And though I don't think people have to believe in God before they can recognize that killing another human being is wrong, I also know that there are many, many people who do not believe killing another human being is wrong, they only believe that they'll be punished for it if they are caught. I'll wager that there are many people who regard many issues as not being a question of right or wrong, but merely a question of legal or illegal.


ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2010, 09:10:04 PM »
George, what is your point, and what does it have to do with the discussion going on in this topic?

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #174 on: October 23, 2010, 09:12:13 PM »
George, what is your point, and what does it have to do with the discussion going on in this topic?

I believe that dismissing a valid but non-compelling argument in such a cavalier fashion is excessive and inaccurate. My point was that there is too much merit in that argument to dismiss it as an "intellectually lazy and morally reprehensible position". The worst that I believe that can be said about that position is that even though it has some merit, it doesn't have sufficient merit to prevail over the more compelling argument that all means are appropriate when innocent life is at stake.


What part of those sentences did you not understand?

And, regarding the topic, to have someone in the LC-MS dismiss an opinion held by many in the ELCA in such a rude and cavalier fashion can inhibit some ELCA people from being willing to work alongside LC-MS people on that cause. They might work separately towards the same goal, but that's not the same as working together.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 09:14:59 PM by George Erdner »

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #175 on: October 23, 2010, 09:28:24 PM »
George, again, your perspective on this is utterly baffling.

You really think a person like Brian Stoffregen would, or could, ever support an organization that teaches that abortion is the sinful murder of a child and would never, in a million years, support how he handled the situation he has described several times on this forum, the family who came to him for advice/counsel on seeking an abortion for their daughter?

Who else has advocated the kind of absurd opinion, you now seem to think is somehow compatible with any aspect of Lutheran for Life's work?

kls

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #176 on: October 23, 2010, 09:28:51 PM »
And, regarding the topic, to have someone in the LC-MS dismiss an opinion held by many in the ELCA in such a rude and cavalier fashion can inhibit some ELCA people from being willing to work alongside LC-MS people on that cause. They might work separately towards the same goal, but that's not the same as working together.

Can you provide some examples of how the ELCA is working towards upholding the sanctity of human life in such a separate manner as you suggest?  If Lutherans for Life isn't welcoming enough because they're too LCMS-ish, then just what are these pro-life ELCA members doing?  I would love to hear about their efforts, truly.  I am of the mindset that not much is happening because of the overall position taken by the ELCA, but I would love to be proven wrong.

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #177 on: October 23, 2010, 10:40:07 PM »
George, again, your perspective on this is utterly baffling.

You really think a person like Brian Stoffregen would, or could, ever support an organization that teaches that abortion is the sinful murder of a child and would never, in a million years, support how he handled the situation he has described several times on this forum, the family who came to him for advice/counsel on seeking an abortion for their daughter?

Who else has advocated the kind of absurd opinion, you now seem to think is somehow compatible with any aspect of Lutheran for Life's work?

Brian Stoffregen is only one person in the ELCA, and certainly not typical of those in the ELCA. Frankly, he's more an embarrassment to many of us in the ELCA who know him than he is a candidate to be the ELCA's poster boy. It's rather baffling to me why you'd pick a "black sheep" of the ELCA as an example of a typical member.

I also never said that the position that I half-heartedly defended as something that shouldn't be dismissed in such a cavalier fashion was universally held by all members of the ELCA. It is a position held by some, in an organization that has no core, no foundation, no mutually accepted positions that all members accept or deny. Those in the ELCA who hold that opinion, wrong though it may be, are only a segment of the total membership of laity and clergy. There are plenty of others who think that position is wrong, who do not hold it, but who nevertheless would think twice about working with an organization in which many of the leaders would make such an attack on a position they disagree with. If that's how the people in the LC-MS dismiss other Lutherans they disagree with on one thing, how will they dismiss others they disagree with? For example, a member of the ELCA who wants to fight abortion might wonder would they be as rude and dismissive of them if they suggested that buying radio spots was a better and more effective use of funds than printing brochures that will sit in a literature bin for weeks and weeks without being read.

And, regarding the topic, to have someone in the LC-MS dismiss an opinion held by many in the ELCA in such a rude and cavalier fashion can inhibit some ELCA people from being willing to work alongside LC-MS people on that cause. They might work separately towards the same goal, but that's not the same as working together.

Can you provide some examples of how the ELCA is working towards upholding the sanctity of human life in such a separate manner as you suggest?  If Lutherans for Life isn't welcoming enough because they're too LCMS-ish, then just what are these pro-life ELCA members doing?  I would love to hear about their efforts, truly.  I am of the mindset that not much is happening because of the overall position taken by the ELCA, but I would love to be proven wrong.

No, I cannot. I do my best to ignore what Higgins Road does. But, I'm sure that if I was interested in finding out, it would be as difficult finding any information about that than it is finding information about what the ELCA actually believes, as in the thread about the Genios comparison of the ELCA and LC-MS.

And personally, I am supporting several candidates for elective office who oppose abortion being legal. I find that single-issue pressure groups tend to be ineffective at getting things accomplished, even when it's things I agree with. Campaigns to persuade people already in elected office to change their minds on any issue is a very difficult task compared with simply replacing them with different people whose minds don't need to be changed. 

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #178 on: October 23, 2010, 10:51:08 PM »
George, anyone who thinks he can be pro-choice and pro-life would never be able to support the aims of Lutherans for Life, so again, what's the point of your remarks?

You are simply making no sense.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 10:57:34 PM by ptmccain »

kls

  • Guest
Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #179 on: October 23, 2010, 10:58:09 PM »
There are plenty of others who think that position is wrong, who do not hold it, but who nevertheless would think twice about working with an organization in which many of the leaders would make such an attack on a position they disagree with. If that's how the people in the LC-MS dismiss other Lutherans they disagree with on one thing, how will they dismiss others they disagree with? For example, a member of the ELCA who wants to fight abortion might wonder would they be as rude and dismissive of them if they suggested that buying radio spots was a better and more effective use of funds than printing brochures that will sit in a literature bin for weeks and weeks without being read.

So they'll dismiss working with an organization that does share their Biblical view on the sanctity of life, but they'll remain part of an organization that completely goes against their view on the same issue (the ELCA church body).  That's logic I just can't wrap my little brain around, George.  It's easy for me to say that, I suppose, since I left the ELCA mostly over this issue.

You keep talking about the proverbial literature sitting in a bin unread.  As with this forum, today's youth (and the not so youthful) navigate the web for their information needs.  The most accessible form of information that LFL puts out can be found on their web site.  I'm not even sure radio advertising is as an effective medium these days.

As has been said on here by both LCMS folks and a couple of ELCA folks who have first-hand knowledge of LFL, nobody would mistreat an ELCA person interested in joining LFL or participating in an LFL event.  As I have mentioned previously on this thread, in all the realms of human care work that I've been a part of, no ministry is more unifying among Christians of ALL denominations than pro-life ministry (specifically a pregnancy resource center).  Hands down.  God works in amazing ways through those volunteers that are the last line of defense from Satan and his schemes.  Life or death hangs in the balance every day, and these people set aside their theological differences for the sake of sharing the love of Christ with mother and child (and dad if he comes).