Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31478 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2010, 01:11:48 PM »
Explain, Pastor Tibbetts, the allegedly failed attempts to "implement" the social statement. That implementation, of course, is in the hands of pastors, congregations, synods and social service agencies.

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2010, 01:19:13 PM »
Does the ELCA "Social Statement" provide justification for the ELCA's health plan providing unlimited and unrestricted coverage for abortions up to twenty weeks?

Why?
Why not?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2010, 01:32:26 PM »
Does the ELCA "Social Statement" provide justification for the ELCA's health plan providing unlimited and unrestricted coverage for abortions up to twenty weeks?

The ELCA Social Statement tells our people how they should respond to an unwanted pregnancy, regardless of what a health plan might provide.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2010, 02:00:36 PM »
Repeating:

Does the ELCA "Social Statement" provide justification for the ELCA's health plan providing unlimited and unrestricted coverage for abortions up to twenty weeks?

Why?
Why not?

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2010, 02:20:21 PM »
Does the ELCA "Social Statement" provide justification for the ELCA's health plan providing unlimited and unrestricted coverage for abortions up to twenty weeks?

The ELCA Social Statement tells our people how they should respond to an unwanted pregnancy, regardless of what a health plan might provide.

I think this line from your social statement is appropriate here:

We confess our sin as a community of faith.

Wish you all would for the sake of all those women walking around hurting and confused about why they feel so badly from something that wasn't supposedly wrong.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2010, 02:37:03 PM »
Repeating:

Does the ELCA "Social Statement" provide justification for the ELCA's health plan providing unlimited and unrestricted coverage for abortions up to twenty weeks?

Why?
Why not?

The "justification" I have heard is that there are procedures, such as Dilation and Curettage (D&C) which can be used for an abortion, but are more often used for other health issues, falls under the insurance coding with abortions. As such, the "justification" has nothing to do with the Social Statement, which is meant to teach people (not BlueCross BlueShield).
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2010, 02:40:04 PM »
Dodging the question, continues, as per the usual.

The ELCA health plans provided unlimited, unrestricted and unqualified coverage for abortions, up to twenty weeks.

What in the Social Statement justifies this coverage for abortion?

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #157 on: October 23, 2010, 02:42:40 PM »
[The "justification" I have heard is that there are procedures, such as Dilation and Curettage (D&C) which can be used for an abortion, but are more often used for other health issues, falls under the insurance coding with abortions. As such, the "justification" has nothing to do with the Social Statement, which is meant to teach people (not BlueCross BlueShield).

Nice try, Brian.  You don't give people much credit for being intelligent thinkers, do you?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #158 on: October 23, 2010, 02:51:34 PM »
Does the ELCA "Social Statement" provide justification for the ELCA's health plan providing unlimited and unrestricted coverage for abortions up to twenty weeks?

The ELCA Social Statement tells our people how they should respond to an unwanted pregnancy, regardless of what a health plan might provide.

I think this line from your social statement is appropriate here:

We confess our sin as a community of faith.

Wish you all would for the sake of all those women walking around hurting and confused about why they feel so badly from something that wasn't supposedly wrong.

I have not heard anyone in the ELCA say that abortion is not wrong. I have heard folks say that it is the lesser of evils, e.g., to save the life of the mother. We all are people who have discovered that we have sinned when we thought that what we were doing wasn't supposedly wrong. The pastoral care, opportunity for confession and forgiveness, given to someone who has had an abortion should be no different from what we offer any sinner.

My hunch is that if you underlined every sentence in our Social Statement that you agree with, there would be a lot of them -- perhaps even more sentences of agreement than of disagreements.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2010, 02:55:20 PM »
Was that young teenage girl you "counseled" with her parents having an abortion to "save her life"? As you have told the story, in various versions, you basically sat there and handed them the ELCA social statement, and sent them on their way, dooming that unborn child to his/her death.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 03:39:38 PM by ptmccain »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2010, 03:06:12 PM »
Dodging the question, continues, as per the usual.

The ELCA health plans provided unlimited, unrestricted and unqualified coverage for abortions, up to twenty weeks.

What in the Social Statement justifies this coverage for abortion?

Because we are pro-choice and anti-abortion (in most instances). Our Statement basically leaves the choice of continuing a pregnancy or ending it with the mother. The "guidance" given in the Statement is that the woman should seek "support and counsel from family members, pastors, professionals, and confidants whom they trust and respect." We "encourage" women with unintended pregnancies to continue to pregnancy and raise the child of possible or put the child up for adoption.

We "recognize" that there can be "sound reasons for ending a pregnancy." We provide guidance for making that decision. The first guide is one that I find many agree with: "An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a pregnancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman."

The two other situations may have less support from anti-abortionists: in cases of rape or incest, and when "circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant." Then we state that an abortion may be a morally responsible choice.

We do not dictate the choice a woman must make. We provide "guidance". It is possible that a woman under the ELCA health plan could make a choice not in line with our guidance, we have agreed to pay for such choices.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2010, 03:08:52 PM »
Oh, Brian. Such utter and total deceit, you should be ashamed of yourself, but tragically, you are not.

Was that young teenage girl you "counseled" with her parents having an abortion to "save her life"? As you have told the story, in various versions, you basically sat there and handed them the ELCA social statement, and sent them on their way, dooming that unborn child to his/her death.

I suppose I will be told that I'm being "rude" to you by saying this.

After reading our Social Statement on Abortion, they believed that their choice was within the guidelines our church has set for making a morally responsible choice. Because of issues of confidentially I do not want to go into more details. If you think I'm rude for not fully disclosing the details to you, so be it.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #162 on: October 23, 2010, 03:09:02 PM »
Really, Brian?

"We "encourage" women with unintended pregnancies to continue to pregnancy and raise the child of possible or put the child up for adoption."

Is that what you did when that family came to you with questions about an abortion for their daughter who had become pregnant? You've told us several times that you basically patted them on the heads, made them feel better about their decision to seek an abortion, and sent them on their way with a copy of the ELCA Social Statement. As for "not wanting to go into details" you already have, several times on this forum.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 03:40:23 PM by ptmccain »

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2010, 04:25:52 PM »
The "guidance" given in the Statement is that the woman should seek "support and counsel from family members, pastors, professionals, and confidants whom they trust and respect."

Sorry, Brian, when she realizes (if she hasn't already) what a dreadful mistake she made in taking the life of an unborn baby, "trust" and "respect" are not going to be her words of choice for her pastor.  I strongly urge you to research information relating to post-abortion syndrome and seek her out for additional counsel.  It is the loving and pastoral thing to do, even if you neglected these duties on the front end. 

http://www.word-of-hope.org/index.php/what-may-happen-after-an-abortion
http://www.word-of-hope.org/index.php/understanding-abortions-aftermath
http://www.word-of-hope.org/index.php/your-church-can-help-with-post-abortion

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2010, 04:33:03 PM »
We do not dictate the choice a woman must make. We provide "guidance". It is possible that a woman under the ELCA health plan could make a choice not in line with our guidance, we have agreed to pay for such choices.

Neither do we "dictate the choice a woman must make." But God does. I pray that all who will not speak His word of life on behalf of the voiceless unborn will come to repentance.