Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31481 times)

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #135 on: October 22, 2010, 03:04:15 PM »
I tried to start a chapter of LFL in Georgia a few years ago, and even the LCMS congregations were not interested in participating.  The issue was just "too political" from what I was told, and we were already in the Bible belt where everybody knows it is wrong.  Yet abortions were performed every day in the state, even on Christian girls.

Personally, I have only known of one ELCA congregation active in supporting the two pregnancy resource centers I've been a part of.  It might be interesting to note that this congregation has since left the ELCA.  Hmmmmm . . . .

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #136 on: October 22, 2010, 05:27:22 PM »
And just how well is that working for you?

The faults rests entirely on ELCA pastors or congregation leaders who refused to share information about LFL with their congregations.

So, George, how is it going for you starting a LFL chapter in your congregation?

There is a very high percentage of ELCA pastors *who do* in fact support the liberal abortion policies of the ELCA, the laity? Not as high.

  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 05:33:11 PM by ptmccain »

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #137 on: October 22, 2010, 05:29:32 PM »
Lutherans for Life is not a political organization like National Right to Life. We focus on how to minister to people affected by the reality of abortion. But the premise is that the reality of abortion is a tragedy and unjustifiable in light of the truth of the Christian faith. So we work with charities that give away diapers and formula to poor mothers. We work with counseling pregnant women (and men) about the value of every life. We work with those who have been deceived into approving, having, or paying for an abortion and now are overwhelmed with guilt and regret. And we seek to have human life protected by law. In short, and contra the snide and ill-informed comments upstream about loving babies vs. loving people, it is precisely because we love people of all ages and conditions that we do what we do, and we refuse to treat a baby in the womb as less human or less worthy of life than a two year old or a twenty year old. And we love the two year olds and twenty-year olds and hundred-and-two year-olds with real love, one that forgives rather than assuages the very real guilt of murder, one that serves concrete need with concrete help, one that does not demand that anyone justify their life with usefulness. That's why euthanasia and assisted-suicide, not just abortion, are part of the mission of Lutherans for Life.

In addition, their statements include the six-day creation and inerrancy of scripture -- beliefs that are not the norms in the ELCA -- although there are ELCA folks with those beliefs. Just based on those paragraphs, I would say that they are too LCMS for many ELCAers.

By God, I agree with Brian on something...  I believe in a SEVEN DAY creation!  :D

But then again, I have always admitted that I am not in the "norm" of the ELCA...

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

LutherMan

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #138 on: October 22, 2010, 05:52:47 PM »
It sure seemed slanderous to me, but then I am a dumb layman being led through LCMS doctrine by wise pastors.   ;)

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #139 on: October 22, 2010, 06:51:59 PM »
And just how well is that working for you?

The faults rests entirely on ELCA pastors or congregation leaders who refused to share information about LFL with their congregations.

So, George, how is it going for you starting a LFL chapter in your congregation?

There is a very high percentage of ELCA pastors *who do* in fact support the liberal abortion policies of the ELCA, the laity? Not as high.

  

Where did I ever say or imply that I had any intention of starting or joining a Lutherans For Life chapter?

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #140 on: October 22, 2010, 06:57:53 PM »
Then stop whining and making ridiculous claims that it is the LFL's fault that ELCA pastors and congregations are not more involved. George, you are just being a pill.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #141 on: October 22, 2010, 07:13:17 PM »
There is a very high percentage of ELCA pastors *who do* in fact support the liberal abortion policies of the ELCA, the laity? Not as high.

And you know this how?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #142 on: October 22, 2010, 07:18:56 PM »
Then stop whining and making ridiculous claims that it is the LFL's fault that ELCA pastors and congregations are not more involved. George, you are just being a pill.

But the success or failure of Lutherans For Life, or any other organization like it, is the responsibility of the organization. If it is succeeding, then the credit goes to the organization. If it is failing, then the blame also goes to the organization.

And, for the record, I haven't been whining. That was nothing but a low blow, cheap shot on your part.

ptmccain

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #143 on: October 22, 2010, 07:21:54 PM »
Lutherans for Life is doing just fine. The fact that ELCA pastors and congregations refuse to participate is indicative of the ELCA's position on abortion.

It's that simple, George.

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #144 on: October 22, 2010, 07:39:45 PM »
Lutherans for Life is doing just fine. The fact that ELCA pastors and congregations refuse to participate is indicative of the ELCA's position on abortion.

It's that simple, George.

If you're content with just "fine", more power to you.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #145 on: October 22, 2010, 10:10:28 PM »
The ELCA's social statement on abortion was adopted years ago. I know of no serious effort to rescind it or dissent from it. So ptmccain's declarations about what the ELCA laity believe seem ridiculous.

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #146 on: October 23, 2010, 01:36:59 AM »
The ELCA's social statement on abortion was adopted years ago. I know of no serious effort to rescind it or dissent from it. So ptmccain's declarations about what the ELCA laity believe seem ridiculous.

Well, Charles, when every attempt to get the ELCA to actually implement it for itself has been suppressed, why seek to rescind a social statement that clearly has no meaning?

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #147 on: October 23, 2010, 01:03:14 PM »
The ELCA's social statement on abortion was adopted years ago. I know of no serious effort to rescind it or dissent from it. So ptmccain's declarations about what the ELCA laity believe seem ridiculous.

Well, Charles, when every attempt to get the ELCA to actually implement it for itself has been suppressed, why seek to rescind a social statement that clearly has no meaning?

I would guess that a vast majority of folks on the ELCA Health Plan follow the guidelines in our Social Statement.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #148 on: October 23, 2010, 01:07:53 PM »
The ELCA's social statement on abortion was adopted years ago. I know of no serious effort to rescind it or dissent from it. So ptmccain's declarations about what the ELCA laity believe seem ridiculous.

More to the point, I think the Social Statement is ignored or mis-represented.  Why rescind something or dissent from something if you don't pay attention to it or bother to even read it?

For example, at a forum regarding the upcoming (disasterous) statement on Genetics, the official convenor (an ELCA pastor who is active on our Synod's "Church and Society" committee) remarked, vis-a-vis the Abortion Statement that "the ELCA said in the Abortion Social Statement that we would not be involved in legislating the issue."  Which prompted me to ask "Have you read the statement?"  The answer was "Well, no, but I know that it said..."  In fact the statement leans exactly the opposite direction, supposedly commiting the ELCA to a legislative agenda that would reduce the number of abortions by addressing the social causes of abortion and by making it the "option of last resort."  

Or the pastor who got so very angry at me for being anti-abortion, claiming that the Social Statement commited the ELCA to advocating for abortion on demand, with as few legal complications as possible.  Again, did she read the statement?  The answer has to be "NO," because you will not find that type of ethic anywhere in the statement itself.  But why bother dissenting from a statement if you don't even bother to read the darn thing.  Why bother rescinding something if you can just ignore it or try and bend it to say what you want it to say?

The one's who argued vociferously against the Social Statement and opposed it were the ones who believe that abortion is never a morally allowable option.  Most of those people have long since gone from the ELCA.  Some of us newer types have stepped up to try and hold the line.  But again, why bother rescinding something that is widely ignored anyway?  Talking about tilting at windmills...

It says a lot about where we (the ELCA) have come to when the Social Statement on Abortion can be looked at as being a "conservative" stance and even as a model of what a Social Statement might dare to do.  It also says a lot about where we are at that most people don't bother to know that we even have such a statement, or don't bother caring to read what it actually says.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #149 on: October 23, 2010, 01:08:43 PM »
The ELCA's social statement on abortion was adopted years ago. I know of no serious effort to rescind it or dissent from it. So ptmccain's declarations about what the ELCA laity believe seem ridiculous.

Well, Charles, when every attempt to get the ELCA to actually implement it for itself has been suppressed, why seek to rescind a social statement that clearly has no meaning?

I would guess that a vast majority of folks on the ELCA Health Plan follow the guidelines in our Social Statement.

Huh?

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS