Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31480 times)

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2010, 03:33:15 PM »
Isn't giving a reason why an ELCA person despises the LCMS part of this topic?

And I've been at the receiving end of some pretty spiteful ELCA folks at joint disaster training events.  Fortunately, some ladies of the ELCA from this forum (pastors even!) have helped me to change my opinion of the ELCA somewhat.  Some of you men would do well to talk to them about how to build some bridges.  Let us all beware of pots, kettles and the color black, shall we? 

For the record, Lutherans for Life also involves the WELS. 

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2010, 03:35:07 PM »
If up to one-third of ELCA pewsitters would rather be in a non-ELCA church but are staying put because they don't see that they have a viable alternative, even though there are plenty of LC-MS congregations out there that they could join, what do you think is the reason?

I don't know until I personally meet them.  Some of the ones I HAVE personally met, including some who didn't at all like our communion policy, ultimately came to the same conclusion that I did (once it was taught correctly), that it is indeed a loving policy.  What parent lets their child do whatever they want, especially when spiritual harm may come to them?  You have to say "no" to some things until a proper understanding is obtained. 

We had a former-Baptist member join our church about a year or so ago who was so enamored with the fact that she wasn't able to commune until she received the proper instruction on the LCMS beliefs.  It was a PRIVILEGE for her to be able to do so, not a right.  I wish I would have written down her words that day she communed for the first time . . . they were beautiful in describing what it was like for her.

Enough on communion . . . as far as I know, LFL doesn't hold worship services with communion distribution at their events, so communion cannot be used as an excuse where LFL is concerned.  You either support the Sanctity of Human Life or you don't.  There is a common bond among people who do which crosses ALL denominational lines.  Local pregnancy resource centers are an amazing example of this.  People from all faiths come together for the sake of helping both mother and child in the name of Jesus.  What an amazing ministry to be a part of!
 

You STILL don't get it. You are telling me (and the people in here) why the LC-MS closed communion policy is a good one. We aren't the ones who need to be told. What is the LC-MS doing proactively, as a nationwide church body, to dispel the misconceptions among other Lutherans and among unchurched Christians in general that the LC-MS isn't as bad as its reputation?

There are other issues with the LC-MS that causes people pause, such as the overuse of acronyms and other "inside" jargon. I notice that you didn't address what I think is a key issue, which is that the main way that people find out about Lutherans for Life is through LC-MS congregations. If you don't get the folks into your congregations, then they won't see the brochures in the display stand in the narthex, will they? You can wax eloquently about how "amazing" the ministry his, but hiding that light under a bushel doesn't accomplish much, does it?

What is the LC-MS and/or Lutherans for Life doing proactively to reach out to people to let them know that the organization exists and what sort of work it does? And please, don't tell me about preaching to the choir inside LC-MS churches. That's a good thing, but it does nothing to reach people who aren't in the buildings.


kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2010, 03:40:33 PM »
When it comes to the Sacraments, it is not "a position to be serving God."  It is a position of God serving people.  That is one of the concepts of an altar.  We do not place things on it to please God, but God places His own Son on it to serve us.  The pastor at the Lord's table is a servant, the one who serves what the Host has prepared, not one who checks ID cards.

I wasn't referring to the Lord's Supper, I was referring to our doctrine as a whole being rooted in Scripture; we uphold God's teachings, not cave to man's desires.

So somebody in the ELCA that is chiming in here please, please, please tell me if you would join a pro-life organization that was geared only to ELCA members?  I believe we're talking circles around the abortion issue by pegging the LCMS as an evil participant in Lutherans for Life.  Can we help it if it took an amazing pastor that happens to be LCMS to lead this great organization?  Dr. Lamb is one of the most pastoral men I've ever met in a position such that he is in; the devil doesn't take too kindly to people exposing his deception and works a lot of overtime to bring them down.

Scott6

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2010, 03:45:33 PM »
What is the LC-MS and/or Lutherans for Life doing proactively to reach out to people to let them know that the organization exists and what sort of work it does? And please, don't tell me about preaching to the choir inside LC-MS churches. That's a good thing, but it does nothing to reach people who aren't in the buildings.

Sorry, I'd rather witness to the truly lost who have never heard the Gospel or who have rejected it than cater to the delicate sensibilities of ELCA dissidents who think the LCMS is too unloving.

If they come into my congregation, then I will be as warm and welcoming to them as I am to any other visitor.

But I'm not going to look to steal sheep or wish the LCMS to compromise its confession to accommodate those who hold a bad impression of the LCMS.

Mike

I suppose we could start some commercials with fluffy kittens and folks smooching dolphins with the tag line: "See, we don't all pull the wings off butterflies."

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2010, 03:50:21 PM »
Just a couple of more comments then back to lurk mode.

LFL is not a Synod or a parish. It is an organization for Lutherans who believe in the sanctity of life and choose to speak publicly on this issue. Anyone who supports life is welcome to participate.

In terms of the thread drift, I would question what it is that the LCMS can do to advertise itself among ELCA people? Take out ads in newspapers? Spam them via e-mail? Steal congregational rosters and go knock on doors?

You need to understand that we walk a tight-rope on this. We do not want to give the appearance of "sheep stealing". Yet a Christian who is forced to endure a non-biblical approach to homosexuality and other issues can be said to not have a true undershepherd anyway.

I wonder how many of those ELCA members who have such a dim image of Missouri have visited one of our parishes?

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2010, 03:53:59 PM »
Dearest George, please tell me what you've done to support ANY type of pro-life work before I respond to your last comment.  I don't want to lay out a laundry list of my experience and accomplishments on this issue unnecessarily.  I also don't like to look like a braggart, but if you're asking me to compare notes with you on what I have done as a Lutheran on the issue and what I know many, many Lutherans are doing, I'll gladly go there with you.

Say what you want about people on this forum already knowing what the LCMS position is and why we hold it, but for every one of our posts, I by earlier counts showed at least 10 readings of the post.  I don't stay on here and argue because it is fun (sometimes it is), it's because I hope someone who may have been duped into believing un-Scriptural teachings such I was may learn something and delve more deeply into their Bibles.  There are lots of lurkers on this forum, and that is one reason this lone little LCMS member chooses to stay active on here in order to dispel the rumors (or better explain the truth, I should say) about my church body.

I have been blessed with off-thread contacts from people who have encouraged me to continue speaking my mind on here, otherwise the negativity would have driven me away long ago.

Thanks for letting me know where you want to go with the ABORTION issue, George.  Your move . . .

J.L. Precup

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2010, 03:59:53 PM »
What is the LC-MS and/or Lutherans for Life doing proactively to reach out to people to let them know that the organization exists and what sort of work it does? And please, don't tell me about preaching to the choir inside LC-MS churches. That's a good thing, but it does nothing to reach people who aren't in the buildings.

Sorry, I'd rather witness to the truly lost who have never heard the Gospel or who have rejected it than cater to the delicate sensibilities of ELCA dissidents who think the LCMS is too unloving.

If they come into my congregation, then I will be as warm and welcoming to them as I am to any other visitor.

But I'm not going to look to steal sheep or wish the LCMS to compromise its confession to accommodate those who hold a bad impression of the LCMS.

Mike

George, you have to understand that the LCMS is not unloving.  We have only labeled you as heterodox, and fenced off our altars to you in a very loving way.  Now won't  you please come support us?
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

Scott6

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2010, 04:07:33 PM »
What is the LC-MS and/or Lutherans for Life doing proactively to reach out to people to let them know that the organization exists and what sort of work it does? And please, don't tell me about preaching to the choir inside LC-MS churches. That's a good thing, but it does nothing to reach people who aren't in the buildings.

Sorry, I'd rather witness to the truly lost who have never heard the Gospel or who have rejected it than cater to the delicate sensibilities of ELCA dissidents who think the LCMS is too unloving.

If they come into my congregation, then I will be as warm and welcoming to them as I am to any other visitor.

But I'm not going to look to steal sheep or wish the LCMS to compromise its confession to accommodate those who hold a bad impression of the LCMS.

Mike

George, you have to understand that the LCMS is not unloving.  We have only labeled you as heterodox, and fenced off our altars to you in a very loving way.  Now won't  you please come support us?

Yes, we have a culture that equates love with affirmation.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2010, 04:08:28 PM »
George, you have to understand that the LCMS is not unloving.  We have only labeled you as heterodox, and fenced off our altars to you in a very loving way.  Now won't  you please come support us?

And yet you remain a rostered LCMS pastor?  Baffling . . .

ABORTION, people!  I am guessing all the hostility and thread drift is because it's just easier to brush the truth under the rug as to why ELCA members won't actually participate in great numbers in LFL.  Please, for the love of God, somebody from the ELCA address the abortion issue instead of side-stepping it?  Can you?  Won't you?  Thanks.

LutherMan

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2010, 04:10:22 PM »
Please, for the love of God, somebody from the ELCA address the abortion issue instead of side-stepping it?  Can you?  Won't you?  Thanks.
Abortion, like homosexuality seems to not be sinful behavior in the ELCA.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2010, 04:22:40 PM »
Please, for the love of God, somebody from the ELCA address the abortion issue instead of side-stepping it?  Can you?  Won't you?  Thanks.
Abortion, like homosexuality seems to not be sinful behavior in the ELCA.

I suppose that's what I've been driving at.  It's a shame.  So the thread question is answered as I suspected it would be.  The LCMS can't be blamed as much as the fact that the ELCA lacks pro-life people.  For any that might happen to be reading this, bless you!  You will find yourself among friends at an LFL gathering (and in an LCMS church).   ;)  Had to put that one in there.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 04:24:34 PM by Kim Schave »

George Erdner

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2010, 04:31:26 PM »
What is the LC-MS and/or Lutherans for Life doing proactively to reach out to people to let them know that the organization exists and what sort of work it does? And please, don't tell me about preaching to the choir inside LC-MS churches. That's a good thing, but it does nothing to reach people who aren't in the buildings.

Sorry, I'd rather witness to the truly lost who have never heard the Gospel or who have rejected it than cater to the delicate sensibilities of ELCA dissidents who think the LCMS is too unloving.

If they come into my congregation, then I will be as warm and welcoming to them as I am to any other visitor.

But I'm not going to look to steal sheep or wish the LCMS to compromise its confession to accommodate those who hold a bad impression of the LCMS.

Mike

A national campaign to convince all and sundry that the LC-MS was loving and a good place to hear the Gospels rightly preached and the Sacraments properly administered would be heard by the truly lost who have never heard the Gospel or who have rejected it and the ELCA dissidents who have the wrong idea about the LC-MS. I don't see how a proactive education campaign could possibly only extend to any one segment of the population without also reaching all the rest. Could you possibly tell me how you could only communicate to ELCA dissidents without also communicating to the truly lost who have never heard the Gospel or who have rejected the Gospel?

And I really wish everyone could get over worrying about "stealing sheep". If anyone is honestly convinced that the pile of non-scriptural crap that the ELCA has adopted in its various Social Statements is wrong, then encouraging people to leave a place where they're being fed false teachings is not stealing sheep, it is rescuing them. If you don't believe that what the ELCA teaches is wrong, you shouldn't hesitate to rescue people from it. On the other hand, if the people at ELCA churches aren't being taught wrong doctrines, then they should be welcome at your altars. You can't have it both ways.

I suppose we could start some commercials with fluffy kittens and folks smooching dolphins with the tag line: "See, we don't all pull the wings off butterflies."

Actually, you had a good thing going with just your first five words, "I suppose we could start". Just starting would be a positive step in the right direction.

Thanks for letting me know where you want to go with the ABORTION issue, George.  Your move . . .

The title of the thread is "Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?". I was addressing the question of whether "Lutherans for Life" was "too LC-MS" to appeal to "ELCA Pro-Life People". What are you addressing?

Please, for the love of God, somebody from the ELCA address the abortion issue instead of side-stepping it?  Can you?  Won't you?  Thanks.
Abortion, like homosexuality seems to not be sinful behavior in the ELCA.

The ELCA is a "big tent". In fact, it's too ____ big. It stands for everything, and therefore stands for nothing. There are plenty of people who are members of ELCA congregations who either don't know what the ELCA's Social Statement on abortion says, or who do know and totally disagree. The ELCA is big on keeping people on the membership rolls who don't agree with some of all of the ELCA's Social Statements in the name of unity.

And if you're going to quote the ELCA's position on homosexuality, at least get it right. The ELCA teaches that homosexuality is both wrong and right, and it's OK to believe either position, so long as you respect the bound conscience of others to accept or reject whatever the teachings are or aren't.

Lutheranistic

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2010, 04:36:05 PM »
So somebody in the ELCA that is chiming in here please, please, please tell me if you would join a pro-life organization that was geared only to ELCA members?
Ok, Kim, I'll bite. As a  20 plus-year (albeit former) ELCA clergy spouse, there is nothing about Lutherans for Life that would preclude me joining. If that were an issue in which I decided to invest time, talent or dollars, (and as an adoptee I believe it is), the importance of the issue would outweigh any doctrinal difference I would have with other members.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 04:38:27 PM by Lutheranistic »

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #88 on: October 21, 2010, 04:39:28 PM »
One of my parishioners and her children, in Detroit to tend to her dying father, picked the closest Lutheran church to go to on Christmas Eve. She expressed satisfaction that the service was a eucharist, but an usher asked her if she was LC-MS. No, she said, she was ELCA. So the usher and pastor told her that she could not receive the sacrament on Christmas Eve, with a dying father in a nearby hospital. Imagine the effect this had on the woman and her two teen-age sons.

Other LC-MS pastors have assured me that they would have communed that family, but...

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2010, 04:41:39 PM »
One of my parishioners and her children, in Detroit to tend to her dying father, picked the closest Lutheran church to go to on Christmas Eve. She expressed satisfaction that the service was a eucharist, but an usher asked her if she was LC-MS. No, she said, she was ELCA. So the usher and pastor told her that she could not receive the sacrament on Christmas Eve, with a dying father in a nearby hospital. Imagine the effect this had on the woman and her two teen-age sons.

Other LC-MS pastors have assured me that they would have communed that family, but...

LIFE is the topic!