Author Topic: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?  (Read 31501 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #225 on: October 25, 2010, 05:36:10 PM »
What I hope beyond anything else is that people can see that what some define as an "unloving" act is really the most loving thing we can do for a person.  Only people/pastors who care and love you will take the risk of pointing out the error of your ways.  It's easy to judge a church body like the LCMS as unloving and uncaring for standing firm on the Word of God in the politically correct culture we live in today.  However, I can attest to the fact that it's the most loving and caring group of people I've encountered.  I'm not part of the old guard of the LCMS and in my experience have not encountered the situations that some say we're reputed for.  I've simply encountered sinners saved by grace who work to uphold a Confession that's persisted and persevered through the years because of the ultimate freedom in Christ it brings.

Thank you for your story. I have argued for the necessity for personal testimonies in our witness to Christ. (Others tend to discount personal experiences -- y'know that swallowing the Spirit feathers and all.)

Having worked as a chaplain in an alcoholic rehab hospital, I'm very aware of the importance of "tough love," which can be perceived at first, as very "unloving." At the same time, I've been criticized by some folks whose love came through their harsh words -- and I've received criticisms that seemed to emanate from other motivations.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #226 on: October 25, 2010, 09:19:13 PM »
Anyone who does not like the options of a medical care plan does not have to be a part of that plan. It's that simple.

G.Edward

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #227 on: October 25, 2010, 09:30:21 PM »
Anyone who does not like the options of a medical care plan does not have to be a part of that plan. It's that simple.

Ah, yes!  The delightfully sensitive liberal "if you don't like it you don't have to watch it / buy it / patronize it / participate" argument that is just a way of brow-beating conservatives into quiet acquiesence.  The point is it this is a Christian organization with a health care plan that victimizes "the least of these."  I think Jesus had something to say about how we treat "the least of these," but maybe I'm overreaching.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #228 on: October 26, 2010, 12:41:22 AM »
Anyone who does not like the options of a medical care plan does not have to be a part of that plan. It's that simple.

Actually, Charles, since medical care in this nation is largely paid for by employers or the government, and since state and federal legislators and bureaucracies like to regulate what medical plans must include, it isn't that simple.  

This nation would be a lot better off, however, if it were.

Pax, Steven+
for whom the old bumper sticker,"America: Love it or leave it," comes into mind....
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:43:11 AM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #229 on: October 26, 2010, 03:23:16 AM »
My apologies. "Simple" was not the correct word. There are ways for one to extract oneself from policies or programs that they believe violate their conscience. Or people can accept the complexity of a situation and live within a system while attempting to change it.
I oppose the state lottery. I do not buy lottery tickets. I would probably vote for a candidate supporting legislation to abolish it. But I have to admit that a portion of my taxes goes to support the lottery and - all too infrequently - at times lottery money goes to something I like, such as environmental protection.

Steverem

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #230 on: October 26, 2010, 09:01:40 AM »
Anyone who does not like the options of a medical care plan slavery does not have to be a part of that plan own slaves. It's that simple.

Charles' argument, circa 1800.

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #231 on: October 26, 2010, 09:54:59 AM »
My apologies. "Simple" was not the correct word. There are ways for one to extract oneself from policies or programs that they believe violate their conscience. Or people can accept the complexity of a situation and live within a system while attempting to change it.
I oppose the state lottery. I do not buy lottery tickets. I would probably vote for a candidate supporting legislation to abolish it. But I have to admit that a portion of my taxes goes to support the lottery and - all too infrequently - at times lottery money goes to something I like, such as environmental protection.
Were it that simple. Usually lotteries are earmarked for particular causes to sell the voters on the idea. But usually what happens is that states underfund those budget items because the lottery will now fund them. Of course, lottery tickets are purchased by the people who can least likely afford them, so in effect it can be viewed as a tax on poverty.

Don't care what the cause a lottery may fund; "whatever it is, I'm against it" because lotteries predate on the poor.

Now back to your regular programming.....
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 09:59:36 AM by Kurt Weinelt »
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #232 on: October 26, 2010, 09:55:49 AM »
Anyone who does not like the options of a medical care plan slavery does not have to be a part of that plan own slaves. It's that simple.
Charles' argument, circa 1800.

Nicely done! :D
Kurt
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #233 on: October 28, 2010, 11:16:11 PM »
Wonder if there is an LFL chapter in this part of Michigan.  And this is medical progress . . . sick!

http://www.wilx.com/news/headlines/17_Aborted_Fetuses_Allegedly_Discarded_In_Dumpster_105820008.html

G.Edward

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #234 on: October 31, 2010, 07:29:43 PM »
We all learn from moving personal stories, Deaconess. A story like yours is inspiring and instructive. So are certain stories that go other directions, some of which you might not approve. Best wishes,


One of the finest backhanded "compliments" I've seen in years and a fine lesson in "pastoral care." 

Despicable at worst.  Ignorant at best.  Time for you to retire and be put out to pasture.

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #235 on: October 31, 2010, 08:43:24 PM »
We all learn from moving personal stories, Deaconess. A story like yours is inspiring and instructive. So are certain stories that go other directions, some of which you might not approve. Best wishes,


One of the finest backhanded "compliments" I've seen in years and a fine lesson in "pastoral care." 

Despicable at worst.  Ignorant at best.  Time for you to retire and be put out to pasture.

It's OK . . . I've come to realize that Charles just needs more love!  I get mad at him, get snippy in response, then realize that the best thing I can do is try to love him through it.   :D

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #236 on: October 31, 2010, 08:43:56 PM »
I tell Deaconess Schave that her story is "inspiring and instructive."

Then Gregory Davidson writes:
Despicable at worst.  Ignorant at best.  Time for you to retire and be put out to pasture.

He does this simply - repeat simply - because I say that other stories, some of which are not like hers, can also be inspiring and instructive. Someone explain to me why I should not take offense at Gregory Davidson's comment that I should be "put out to pasture" or that my words are "ignorant" or "despicable".
Please. This is really outrageous.
But - as is often the case - we digress.

LutherMan

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #237 on: October 31, 2010, 08:51:26 PM »
Well, you weren't really very pastoral in your post...

kls

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #238 on: October 31, 2010, 08:55:48 PM »
I tell Deaconess Schave that her story is "inspiring and instructive."

Then Gregory Davidson writes:
Despicable at worst.  Ignorant at best.  Time for you to retire and be put out to pasture.

He does this simply - repeat simply - because I say that other stories, some of which are not like hers, can also be inspiring and instructive. Someone explain to me why I should not take offense at Gregory Davidson's comment that I should be "put out to pasture" or that my words are "ignorant" or "despicable".
Please. This is really outrageous.
But - as is often the case - we digress.

Charles:  I think you were in your own way trying to put me in my place, and perhaps others picked up on that.  You can't even imagine the positive feedback I've received on writing what I did, even though I did it out of anger and spite towards you (wrongly).  I took your comment to mean that others choose to abort and find some sort of peace and presumably God (?) through so doing.  I am doubtful anyone who takes the life of a precious, defenseless infant EVER truly finds peace unless and until they reconcile their action with God.  You are welcome to clarify what you meant by your comment if it was not this.

My dear sir, I'm beginning to think you are one who can dish it out but can't take it.   But I will continue to pray for patience and the ability to love you through your snarkiness.   :)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is Lutherans For Life "too LCMS" for ELCA Pro-Life People?
« Reply #239 on: October 31, 2010, 09:01:21 PM »
Deaconess Schave writes:
I took your comment to mean that others choose to abort and find some sort of peace and presumably God (?) through so doing. 

I comment:
I think you choose to read something ugly in that process. I (and tens of thousands of others) will say that it is possible for a people to choose to have an abortion and find peace, forgiveness and newness of life through that difficult decision, tainted by sin as are all our decisions. Their stories, also painful, can also be instructive and inspiring.