Chilstrom makes a plea to Catholic Bishops

[Brian Stoffregen]

Seriously Charles?  you mean the  and the "seriously though"  didn't clue you in to it being said in jest?

I remember reading comments where at least one person still believes the pope (or at least the office of pope) is the anti-Christ.

[Dan Fienen]

Is the gospel as it is proclaimed in Augustana IV still anathema to the RC Church?  Has any Pope lifted the official condemnation?  Or has salvation by grace through faith become another of these things that everyone has their own interpretation and they are all OK? 

Dan

[George Erdner]

Seriously Charles?  you mean the  and the "seriously though"  didn't clue you in to it being said in jest?

Some folks only grasp the concept of "whimsy" when they make a feeble attempt at it themselves. They cannot recognize it in others. 

[John_Hannah]

Is the gospel as it is proclaimed in Augustana IV still anathema to the RC Church?  Has any Pope lifted the official condemnation?  Or has salvation by grace through faith become another of these things that everyone has their own interpretation and they are all OK? 

Dan

DAN

I believe that the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification does indeed answer your questions in the affirmative.


Peace, JOHN

[readselerttoo]

Is the gospel as it is proclaimed in Augustana IV still anathema to the RC Church?  Has any Pope lifted the official condemnation?  Or has salvation by grace through faith become another of these things that everyone has their own interpretation and they are all OK? 

Dan

According to my understanding, the anathemas authored at the Council of Trent are still in effect.  Justification by faith (JBF) is still a bone of contention officially between Lutherans and Roman Catholics.  Even JDDJ made no changes in that respect.  Unless RCism (papacy which is the official voice of RCism) takes up the issues of original sin and that which is stated in both their confutation along with our (Lutheranisms) AC 4 (and as an explication Apology 4) there can be no agreement between our churches.  It is unfortunate, but the Gospel is at stake here.

[Chuck]

Is the gospel as it is proclaimed in Augustana IV still anathema to the RC Church?  Has any Pope lifted the official condemnation?  Or has salvation by grace through faith become another of these things that everyone has their own interpretation and they are all OK? 

Dan

I assume (yes, I know) that you are aware of the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF
JUSTIFICATION which states:

5. The Significance and Scope of the Consensus Reached

40.The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us "salutary warnings" to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21]

43.Our consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification must come to influence the life and teachings of our churches. Here it must prove itself. In this respect, there are still questions of varying importance which need further clarification. These include, among other topics, the relationship between the Word of God and church doctrine, as well as ecclesiology, ecclesial authority, church unity, ministry, the sacraments, and the relation between justification and social ethics. We are convinced that the consensus we have reached offers a solid basis for this clarification. The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church will continue to strive together to deepen this common understanding of justification and to make it bear fruit in the life and teaching of the churches.

44.We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ's will.

So, I guess the answers to your questions are no, yes, and yes.

[John_Hannah]

We as Lutheran do not agree with the majority of Christians, whether Presbyterian, Baptist, or Methodists. Yet we don't call them the antichrist.

Anyone up to publicly declaring Billy Graham...?


Peace, JOHN

[Charles_Austin]

And the Joint Document on Justification, quoted just upstream, shows that today's Vatican does not have the same view of the doctrine of justification as did the Vatican of Luther's time.

Note these words (emphasis added):
"The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration."

And remember that the current bishop of Rome was the one who "rescued" that joint declaration when it was being criticized by other key people in Rome.

[Pilgrim]

Tim wonders: Is it not the current Pontiff et al who have recently announced a massive program of indulgences? Perhaps smoke, mirrors and words mean exactly what I want them to mean at any given point is not an historically limited exercise. 

[John_Hannah]

...and how many "Lutheran indulgences" do we get every time we say it: "The Pope is the antichrist."   


Peace, JOHN

[readselerttoo]

And the Joint Document on Justification, quoted just upstream, shows that today's Vatican does not have the same view of the doctrine of justification as did the Vatican of Luther's time.

Note these words (emphasis added):
"The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration."

And remember that the current bishop of Rome was the one who "rescued" that joint declaration when it was being criticized by other key people in Rome.

I do note the words above.  However, they can be read that the condemnations at Trent were not discussed surrounding JDDJ
and therefore the issue is still open for discussion.  In other words not all of what was a bone of contention between the confessors and those who responded with the confutation was discussed leading up to JDDJ.  The wording of the section quoted above simply does not make a full agreement possible between Lutherans and Roman Catholics regarding the fullness of justification by faith.

[Mike Gehlhausen]

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

I believe and confess this article -- I am not called to teach -- and as the LCMS still promotes it as its doctrine on its web site, I am fairly certain that I am not alone.

Mike

[readselerttoo]

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

I believe and confess this article -- I am not called to teach -- and as the LCMS still promotes it as its doctrine on its web site, I am fairly certain that I am not alone.

Mike

Melanchthon makes it clear in one of the documents in the Book of Concord  that the confessors could accept the office of the Papacy if the confutators would agree that its foundation was based on human grounds rather than by divine origin.  I think it was stated in Power and Primacy but I'm not sure.  I'll have to check.   As far as this being discussed between both parties I doubt of any official ruling.  It would have had an impact on how Rome would view justification.  As it stands and as I understand it, the office of the Papacy continues to be a thorn in the side in terms of the satis est of the Gospel.

[John_Hannah]

Melanchthon's assertion is found in the Smalcald Articles at the end with the subscriptions.

Bekenntnisschriften der evangelisch-lutherischen Kirche, pp. 463-64

Kolb/Wengert, p. 326


Peace, JOHN

[Coach-Rev]

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

I believe and confess this article -- I am not called to teach -- and as the LCMS still promotes it as its doctrine on its web site, I am fairly certain that I am not alone.

Mike

Seems to me you just described people like the so-called "Rev" Jeremiah Wright, numerous TV evangelists, and many others.  In today's age, my vote goes to them long before the pope.