Author Topic: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation  (Read 96429 times)

Coach-Rev

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1050 on: May 01, 2013, 10:32:57 AM »
From all accounts, Saving Grace's worship was huge on Sunday.  Can anyone report on what the shell of Grace Lutheran (the now former "Amazing Grace" Synodically Authorized Worship Community) was like on Sunday?  Apparently, all of their outreach ministries:  AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

I've edited to correct my confusion on the "grace" names....
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:15:13 AM by Coach-Rev »

DCharlton

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1051 on: May 01, 2013, 10:46:27 AM »
Amazing Grace is the group that won the lawsuit, is it not? 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Coach-Rev

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1052 on: May 01, 2013, 10:49:57 AM »
Amazing Grace is the group that won the lawsuit, is it not?

oops, I think you are right - "Saving Grace" is the new group now that is the rightful membership of Grace Lutheran but was forcibly removed last week from the building.  Sorry, can't keep all these "grace" names straight  :-[

Corrections have been made to the previous post...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:15:46 AM by Coach-Rev »

Virgil

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1053 on: May 01, 2013, 10:51:12 AM »
From all accounts, Amazing Grace's worship was huge on Sunday.  Can anyone report on what the shell of Grace Lutheran was like on Sunday?  Apparently, all of their outreach ministries:  AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

According to Grace ELCA's website (the winners):

Grace and Peace To You All

During this time of transition, the Grace Lutheran Church building on 202 West Grand Avenue will be closed.

During transition, Grace ELCA will worship at First Lutheran 1005 Oxford Avenue

Sunday April 28th, 11:00 AM




Please come back to this site for up-to-date information

Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1054 on: May 01, 2013, 11:09:43 AM »
Pastor Cottingham writes:
AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

I muse:
You speak as if there is no chance for rebirth, growth, even expansion after the current troubles have passed. You speak as if there is no value in standing for what you believe is right no matter what. Have you no confidence that God can rebuild, that faith can emerge from difficulties even stronger?
You speak as if this is the end of everything. Why could it not be a new beginning?
   Or do you prefer to dwell on the down side?

DCharlton

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1055 on: May 01, 2013, 11:30:43 AM »
You speak as if there is no chance for rebirth, growth, even expansion after the current troubles have passed. You speak as if there is no value in standing for what you believe is right no matter what. Have you no confidence that God can rebuild, that faith can emerge from difficulties even stronger?

I muse:

It seems that in this, as in other conflicts, the assumption is that this will be true for the side one favors.  Could it be true for both Saving Grace and Amazing Grace at the same time?  Is it possible for both of them to experience rebirth, growth and expansion?  Can both sides benefit from standing for what they believe is right no matter what?  What about Grace Lutheran itself?  Might it dwindle and disappear even as Saving Grace and Amazing Grace flourish?  That's a lot to think about.

In a similar vein, is it always best to do what you believe is right not matter what, or is it better to count the cost and refrain from acting if more harm will come?  I ask this because I think if I had been a member of either group, now known as Saving Grace and Amazing Grace, I might have chosen not to go to court. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Coach-Rev

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1056 on: May 01, 2013, 11:39:19 AM »
Pastor Cottingham writes:
AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

I muse:
You speak as if there is no chance for rebirth, growth, even expansion after the current troubles have passed. You speak as if there is no value in standing for what you believe is right no matter what. Have you no confidence that God can rebuild, that faith can emerge from difficulties even stronger?
You speak as if this is the end of everything. Why could it not be a new beginning?
   Or do you prefer to dwell on the down side?

Amazed yet again that you would choose to put your own spin to one comment, all the while ignoring the point of it all, namely the part of my statement in BOLD.  Funny how there is not a single mention of there being "no chance for rebirth, growth, or even expansion..."  and yet like a missile, you roared in there anyhow.  Your tracking was off as you missed the target.  Again.

George Erdner

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1057 on: May 01, 2013, 11:52:05 AM »
It never ceases to amaze me how some people are like the child who finds a pile of horse dung under the tree on Christmas morning who are thrilled because they think that means there is a new pony nearby.


When a thriving congregation, with many active mission and ministry programs operating that benefit God's people, is forcibly closed in the name of raw greed because a church body covets their property, there is no possible way to view the success of those who sought to destroy the congregation as anything but a tragedy. There is no defense for the reprehensible action of the ELCA's local synod. There is no "bright side" to having a congregation dragged through the legal system so that its property can be stolen through the scheming of lawyers.


There are times when even the ELCA's number one cheerleader should simply hid his head in shame at being part of such an organization, and should refrain from compounding the tragedy by attempting to defend the indefensible.


Don Whitbeck

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1058 on: May 01, 2013, 12:33:43 PM »
From all accounts, Amazing Grace's worship was huge on Sunday.  Can anyone report on what the shell of Grace Lutheran was like on Sunday?  Apparently, all of their outreach ministries:  AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

According to Grace ELCA's website (the winners):

Grace and Peace To You All

During this time of transition, the Grace Lutheran Church building on 202 West Grand Avenue will be closed.

During transition, Grace ELCA will worship at First Lutheran 1005 Oxford Avenue

Sunday April 28th, 11:00 AM




Please come back to this site for up-to-date information
[/quote

God knows all things, even the false teachings of a church that uses the name Lutheran, and pulls the name Luther out of a hat but once a year on Reformation Sunday.  Other then that forget it.

Forget Scripture in the the real context, just use the Liberal Revisionist one that can be changed to whatever they want it to mean.  This would also apply to every Liberal Christian Group that doesn't like what the Word of Gods says, or what Christian Teachings held to be true for Centuries.

It come from Post Modern man, if you don't like it, we can change it, because we donít like the way it has been correctly taught for Centuries.

Plan and simple and right to the point. 

That's why the flood gates have opened up on every Liberal Church that has rejected Scripture and the teaching of their church to accept the Cultural view that everything is possible, and we can all get along together as long as you agree with them.  That everything can be changed by a vote, and everyone must accept the new glory gospel.  The very thing that Luther warned us about, and to stay away from.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:39:57 PM by Confessional Lutheran »
The Voice of God will NEVER Contradict the Word of God

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1059 on: May 01, 2013, 01:16:36 PM »
Amazing Grace is the group that won the lawsuit, is it not?


I don't believe Amazing Grace exists any more.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1060 on: May 01, 2013, 02:31:24 PM »
From all accounts, Amazing Grace's worship was huge on Sunday.  Can anyone report on what the shell of Grace Lutheran was like on Sunday?  Apparently, all of their outreach ministries:  AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

According to Grace ELCA's website (the winners):

Grace and Peace To You All

During this time of transition, the Grace Lutheran Church building on 202 West Grand Avenue will be closed.

During transition, Grace ELCA will worship at First Lutheran 1005 Oxford Avenue

Sunday April 28th, 11:00 AM




Please come back to this site for up-to-date information

Not following all that closely but this jumped out at me.

So the winners are not using the church building that they won?  They are meeting at First Lutheran?  Why are the winners not using the building that they won?  Am I the only person saying, "WTH?" 

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

George Erdner

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1061 on: May 01, 2013, 04:05:51 PM »
Not following all that closely but this jumped out at me.

So the winners are not using the church building that they won?  They are meeting at First Lutheran?  Why are the winners not using the building that they won?  Am I the only person saying, "WTH?" 

Jeremy


That's one of the many, many troublesome things about this whole sordid affair. I have suspected all along that the synod's ultimate intended fate for that building is to sell it as prime real estate. Only time will tell if that suspicion is correct or not.


Mel Harris

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1062 on: May 01, 2013, 04:59:17 PM »
   Here is a brief summary of what has happened so far.  Offer a correction if you think any of this is not accurate.

Grace Lutheran Church in Eau Claire, Wisconsin was going through the process of trying to leave the ELCA.

At least one of the pastors stated that others were interfering in the ministry of the congregation.

They failed to get a two thirds majority vote to leave the ELCA.

The synod bishop informed them that they would hold a special service of the congregation in which he would preside and the pastors of the congregation would assist him.

The congregation council decided not to hold the special service the bishop had scheduled for them, and that service was not held.

The congregation council voted to affiliate with the LCMC in addition to being a congregation of the ELCA.

With the encouragement and support of the synod bishop, some of the members stopped attending services at Grace Lutheran and formed a worshipping community called Amazing Grace which held services in the building of another congregation.

The congregation council of Grace Lutheran moved those who had stopped attending their services from the list of voting members to the list of associate members.

Some of the members of Amazing Grace Lutheran sued Grace Lutheran.

The circuit court judge ordered that Grace Lutheran could not hold their annual meeting, or elect new officers until the case was settled.

Grace Lutheran complied with that order and continued on with the officers who had been elected previously.

The synod decided that Grace Lutheran could not be affiliated with the LCMC and that those who had been moved to associate member status were still voting members of Grace Lutheran.

The circuit court judge agreed with the synod.

Grace Lutheran complied with that order.

The synod bishop removed the pastors of Grace Lutheran from the clergy roster of the ELCA.

The synod decided that those who had continued to attend services at Grace Lutheran had been disloyal to the ELCA and had to be moved from the list of voting members to the list of associate members, and that the keys to the property of Grace Lutheran had to be handed over to the members of Amazing Grace Lutheran.

The circuit court judge agreed with that decision of the synod.

The leaders of Grace Lutheran complied with that order and handed over the keys to the property to a representative of the synod and those who had been members of Amazing Grace.

A representative of the synod told the employees of Grace Lutheran that they had a certain amount of time to remove any of their personal property from the property of Grace Lutheran.

The Grace Lutheran building is now locked up and not being used by anyone.

Those who were members of Amazing Grace, who are now the only voting members of Grace Lutheran, held a Sunday Service in the building of another congregation.

A number of those who by the order of the court are no longer voting members of Grace Lutheran held a Sunday Service, Sunday School and a meeting in a funeral home chapel.  At that meeting they voted to form a congregation that would be affiliated with the LCMC and asked the former pastors of Grace Lutheran to continue serving as their pastors.  They are calling this congregation they are forming Saving Grace Lutheran.

As of now, the only voting members of Grace Lutheran are those who were members of Amazing Grace.  Since the voting members of the Grace Foundation are the voting members of Grace Lutheran, those who were members of Amazing Grace also control the ministries and property of that large foundation.  (It is possible that the orders of the circuit court judge, enforcing the decisions of the synod, may be appealed to a higher court.)

       I doubt that many think this is good for the reputation of that synod or the ELCA.

                     Mel Harris

cnehring

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1063 on: May 01, 2013, 04:59:34 PM »
From all accounts, Saving Grace's worship was huge on Sunday.  Can anyone report on what the shell of Grace Lutheran (the now former "Amazing Grace" Synodically Authorized Worship Community) was like on Sunday?  Apparently, all of their outreach ministries:  AA, Food Pantry, Boy Scouts, and others, were all terminated as a result of this.  How truly sad, and what an embarrassing witness to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian life.

I've edited to correct my confusion on the "grace" names....

And isn't it sad that one side cannot abide by the words of Scripture where Christians are not to take each other to court. "So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but broker goes to law against brother, adn that before unbelievers. To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you." 1 Cor. 6:4-7

Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #1064 on: May 01, 2013, 05:10:33 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes (proving he does indeed read my comments):
When a thriving congregation, with many active mission and ministry programs operating that benefit God's people, is forcibly closed in the name of raw greed because a church body covets their property, there is no possible way to view the success of those who sought to destroy the congregation as anything but a tragedy. There is no defense for the reprehensible action of the ELCA's local synod. There is no "bright side" to having a congregation dragged through the legal system so that its property can be stolen through the scheming of lawyers.

I comment:
Now I am going to make a statement; and then comment on the statement, so be patient and wait for the whole package.
   When a group of people, so possessive of "their" church, attempt to steal that church away from the ELCA, resort to trickery and deception and illegal actions to do so, thereby forcing the true, loyal members of that church to go to court and save what is - in the sight of God and the law - rightfully theirs; there is no possible way to see the action of those who tried to take that church out of the ELCA as anything but raw selfishness and utter disregard for the rest of the congregation, the synod and the ELCA; and there is indeed a"bright side" to when the true and loyal members of the congregation triumph.
    Now.... here is the difference between Mr. Erdner's mean-spirited, erroneous, and foolish-to-the-extreme comment and what I just wrote.
    I know my sentence is nonsense and foolish.
    He is so deluded as to think that his foolish and mean-spirited statement is true. 

Mr. Erdner writes:
There are times when even the ELCA's number one cheerleader should simply hid his head in shame at being part of such an organization, and should refrain from compounding the tragedy by attempting to defend the indefensible.
I comment:
There are times when even the ELCA's most persistent and ill-informed critic should simply hide his head in shame for posting such vicious diatribes against fellow members of the church to which he belongs, even though he "belongs" simply because he hasn't the guts, energy or integrity to go anywhere else.