Author Topic: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation  (Read 101414 times)

grabau

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #405 on: March 07, 2012, 09:13:12 AM »

what motivates the "liberal"?  To me seems like a  merchant whose sales are down.  Thus he/she keeps reducing the prices and  finds few willing to "buy" anyway.  grabau

Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #406 on: March 07, 2012, 09:27:08 AM »
someone writes:
what motivates the "liberal"?  To me seems like a  merchant whose sales are down.  Thus he/she keeps reducing the prices and  finds few willing to "buy" anyway.  grabau

I muse (IRONY and SARCASM alert!!!)
what motivates the "conservative"? to me he seems like someone so afraid of change or challenge that he locks himself in a mental and spiritual room and is afraid to come out, lest his weak faith be overpowered. 
See how silly such quickie put-downs are?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #407 on: March 07, 2012, 10:07:39 AM »
What motivates "sinners"?


Self.
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

grabau

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #408 on: March 07, 2012, 10:54:19 AM »
Pr. Austin, remember That Was The It Was--a British revues.  One sketch they did:  There ain't nobody out there or up there itis true, but we keep on swinging the censer 'round the way we used to do. grabau

Pilgrim

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #409 on: March 07, 2012, 11:09:46 AM »
someone writes:
what motivates the "liberal"?  To me seems like a  merchant whose sales are down.  Thus he/she keeps reducing the prices and  finds few willing to "buy" anyway.  grabau

I muse (IRONY and SARCASM alert!!!)
what motivates the "conservative"? to me he seems like someone so afraid of change or challenge that he locks himself in a mental and spiritual room and is afraid to come out, lest his weak faith be overpowered. 
See how silly such quickie put-downs are?

Tim notes with irony as well: a gift you also apparently seem to possess in abundance, when you're not self-defining as "sweet, cuddly, cute, sand castle building or cat-petting."  :P
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Don Whitbeck

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #410 on: March 07, 2012, 12:52:01 PM »
Pr. Austin, you're the one who said those who came into the ELCA believing the assurances of their bishops were "stupid" for doing so.  Your lack of understanding and empathy for those who felt betrayed by the gap between assurances received from their bishops and the actual direction taken by ELCA leadership speaks volumes about the difficulties and pressures facing those orthodox-traditional pastors and laity who remain in the ELCA.  On what grounds can you encourage or convince them they should trust (and act with trust and support) for the synodical and churchwide leadership of the ELCA, including the supposed promise that their "bound consciences" will be respected?


To think that an ALC or LCA bishop could make guarantees about the new church before it was even formed suggests a gift of foresight and prophecy that I doubt any of our ecclesiastical leaders really have.

Boy, Brian, I wish I kept those two books on how the ELCA was formed.  This guy was there from the very beginning to the very end.  Much of what was stated here was also published in his books of promised made, and not kept.  Those who were representing the ALC felt betrayed in the end.
The Voice of God will NEVER Contradict the Word of God

Don Whitbeck

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #411 on: March 07, 2012, 12:56:13 PM »
someone writes:
what motivates the "liberal"?  To me seems like a  merchant whose sales are down.  Thus he/she keeps reducing the prices and  finds few willing to "buy" anyway.  grabau

I muse (IRONY and SARCASM alert!!!)
what motivates the "conservative"? to me he seems like someone so afraid of change or challenge that he locks himself in a mental and spiritual room and is afraid to come out, lest his weak faith be overpowered. 
See how silly such quickie put-downs are?

Tim notes with irony as well: a gift you also apparently seem to possess in abundance, when you're not self-defining as "sweet, cuddly, cute, sand castle building or cat-petting."  :P

He should start all of his post this way. (IRONY and SARCASM alert!!!) Since the majority of them are just that.
The Voice of God will NEVER Contradict the Word of God

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #412 on: March 07, 2012, 12:58:49 PM »
Pr. Austin, you're the one who said those who came into the ELCA believing the assurances of their bishops were "stupid" for doing so.  Your lack of understanding and empathy for those who felt betrayed by the gap between assurances received from their bishops and the actual direction taken by ELCA leadership speaks volumes about the difficulties and pressures facing those orthodox-traditional pastors and laity who remain in the ELCA.  On what grounds can you encourage or convince them they should trust (and act with trust and support) for the synodical and churchwide leadership of the ELCA, including the supposed promise that their "bound consciences" will be respected?


To think that an ALC or LCA bishop could make guarantees about the new church before it was even formed suggests a gift of foresight and prophecy that I doubt any of our ecclesiastical leaders really have.

Boy, Brian, I wish I kept those two books on how the ELCA was formed.  This guy was there from the very beginning to the very end.  Much of what was stated here was also published in his books of promised made, and not kept.  Those who were representing the ALC felt betrayed in the end.


I was also there through the whole process. A neighboring pastor was on the CNLC -- and we met at his church every week for pericope studies. We heard directly from him about what was going on. He was ALC, but he never talked about being betrayed. He was also elected the first bishop of that new synod, which was about 2/3 LCA! Yes, the ALC had to give up some things, but so did the LCA. The ELCA is a new Lutheran Church -- different from any of the predecessor bodies.

I was also a reporter for a transition team. I attended all the meetings and sent out a newsletter to every congregation after each meeting. In that particular synod (called Missouri-Kansas at the time) there were six predecessor bodies (and six bishops) to deal with.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 01:03:06 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

grabau

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #413 on: March 07, 2012, 01:17:47 PM »
If I might pursue my analogy (above) when sales are down it might be best to upgrade the quality of the  merchandise.  grabau

Terry W Culler

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #414 on: March 07, 2012, 03:17:17 PM »
I had no part in it, but the pastor who supervised my vicarage was ALC--a kinder, gentler man it would be hard to find. His words to me--they lied to us and sold us down the river.  FWIW.
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #415 on: March 07, 2012, 03:24:36 PM »
I was there from before the beginning. I was also partially responsible for getting news about the CNLC, church body conventions, and other doings out to synods and districts and congregations and the religious and secular media.
I suspect I was too naive about readership, interest and intelligence; because as I started going to constituting conventions of "new" ELCA synods, I found a few people who barely knew that a merger was in the works and still thought that things were as they were in the ALC or LCA or AELC.
Since then I have sought a cure for invincible ignorance, but none has arrived.
But I still contend that if you, or your beloved pastor, or your congregation or your former bishop or your best friend did not know the details of the ELCA merger, someone was not paying attention.
OTOH, the ELCA, like all organisms has evolved, and it is not now exactly as it was 21 years ago, nor should it be. And so....?

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #416 on: March 07, 2012, 04:42:20 PM »
... Since then I have sought a cure for invincible ignorance, ... someone was not paying attention.
[SARCASM ALERT]
I'm just trying to figure this out. On the one hand good old ALC pastors and bishops like those mentioned and Pr. Culler were "not paying attention," or worse (I haven't quite sorted out what invincible ignorance is??).
Ok we can discount those guys...

Hmmm. now those who saw it and left, like me and for that matter The AALC as a body, ??whimsically flitted like sectarians from church to church body,??, is that the basic charge? ... and are to be discounted for some other reason?

So just to get this straight .... Only those who stayed and still stay in the ELCA are measured alert and wise?.... And the evolution of ELCA is just ... charting the one true way?... Ok I think I got it...  ;D ;D ;D

Good thing we have been educated by those "who were there," unlike us ... oh wait! .. we WERE  there! ... hmmm. It's so confusing...

Kyrie Eleison

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« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:53:48 PM by Timotheus Verinus »
TAALC Pastor

Chuck Sampson

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #417 on: March 07, 2012, 04:47:42 PM »
... Since then I have sought a cure for invincible ignorance, ... someone was not paying attention.
[SARCASM ALERT]
I'm just trying to figure this out. On the one hand good old ALC pastors and bishops like those mentioned and Pr. Culler were "not paying attention," or worse (I haven't quite sorted out what invincible ignorance is??).
Ok we can discount those guys...

Hmmm. now those who saw it and left, like me and for that matter The AALC as a body, ??whimsically flitted like sectarians from church to church body,?? are to be discounted for some other reason?

So just to get this straight .... Only those who stayed and still stay in the ELCA are measured alert and wise?.... And the evolution of ELCA is just ... charting the one true way?... Ok I think I got it...  ;D ;D ;D

Good thing we have been educated by those "who were there," unlike us ... oh wait! .. we WERE  there! ... hmmm. It's so confusing...

Kyrie Eleison

TV
+1  8)

Pilgrim

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #418 on: March 07, 2012, 05:28:49 PM »
... Since then I have sought a cure for invincible ignorance, ... someone was not paying attention.
[SARCASM ALERT]
I'm just trying to figure this out. On the one hand good old ALC pastors and bishops like those mentioned and Pr. Culler were "not paying attention," or worse (I haven't quite sorted out what invincible ignorance is??).
Ok we can discount those guys...

Hmmm. now those who saw it and left, like me and for that matter The AALC as a body, ??whimsically flitted like sectarians from church to church body,?? are to be discounted for some other reason?

So just to get this straight .... Only those who stayed and still stay in the ELCA are measured alert and wise?.... And the evolution of ELCA is just ... charting the one true way?... Ok I think I got it...  ;D ;D ;D

Good thing we have been educated by those "who were there," unlike us ... oh wait! .. we WERE  there! ... hmmm. It's so confusing...

Kyrie Eleison

TV
+1  8)
+2  8)
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #419 on: March 07, 2012, 05:56:22 PM »
Pastor Awtrey writes:
I'm just trying to figure this out.
I comment:
I doubt that.

Pastor Awtrey writes:
On the one hand good old ALC pastors and bishops like those mentioned and Pr. Culler were "not paying attention," or worse (I haven't quite sorted out what invincible ignorance is??).
Ok we can discount those guys...
I comment:
I make a simple point. All of the plans for the merger, in excruciating detail, were available to anyone who wanted them. Great efforts were made to explain the merger. Some people chose not to find out what was going on.

Pastor Awtrey writes:
Hmmm. now those who saw it and left, like me and for that matter The AALC as a body, ??whimsically flitted like sectarians from church to church body,??, is that the basic charge? ... and are to be discounted for some other reason?
I comment:
I am confused. You were LCA? Or ALC? Or AELC? I thought you were recently LCMS, until you went somewhere else. And I do not recall "the AALC as a body" leaving the ELCA, for indeed, I don't think it was a body until folks left and formed it.

Pastor Awtrey:
So just to get this straight .... Only those who stayed and still stay in the ELCA are measured alert and wise?....
I comment:
Nope. It's the LCMS (and maybe a few others) who claim that they are the only true way, that they have the only "measured, alert, and wise" take on Lutheranism.

Pastor Awtrey:
And the evolution of ELCA is just ... charting the one true way?... Ok I think I got it...
Me:
No. You don't get it. We are charting our way. And we are doing it according to the ways we have agreed to do so.