Author Topic: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation  (Read 101410 times)

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #285 on: February 01, 2012, 04:08:12 PM »

I have said it before. I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Or more openly ecumenical........ when the differences are seen as relatively unimportant. I am dual-rostered with Augsburg Lutheran Churches and a district of LCMC. Some of my colleagues in ALC are dual-rostered with NALC at the invitation of NALC. My congregation could probably be triple-rostered with all of these entities if they wished.


Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.


Sure.  And having a conversation with two or three women is a "bit" like being married to them as well.  But it's a very small "bit."


The covenant relationship between a congregation and its denomination is more than just having a conversation with each other.

Why are you insisting on applying your denominational rules and paradigms to all other denominational arrangements? Are you not aware that the Lutheran confessions are open to more than one way of viewing such "man-made" arrangements and rites?

Lou

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45544
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #286 on: February 01, 2012, 04:12:08 PM »
Why are you insisting on applying your denominational rules and paradigms to all other denominational arrangements? Are you not aware that the Lutheran confessions are open to more than one way of viewing such "man-made" arrangements and rites?


Because the actions in question -- an ELCA congregation becoming rostered with additional denominations -- involve my denomination.


You haven't answered the question why your congregation and/or you would want to be rostered with multiple denominations?


I also wonder: if the denominations are so similar that you and/or your congregation can be rostered with them -- why don't they come together as one?
"The church ... had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #287 on: February 01, 2012, 04:13:13 PM »

Would someone please explain to Mr. Erdner - for the thousandth time - that no congregation in the ELCA is ever - repeat ever - "simultaneously part of the ELCA and PCUSA"? This does not happen. Ever. Nothing in any ecumenical agreement envisions congregations simultaneously part of two denominations.

You might want to open up page 290 of the ELCA's 2012 Yearbook, Charles.  There are 4 federated congregations with the PCUSA and 1 union congregation.

Quote from: 2012 Yearbook
Federated congregations are congregations that are formed and maintained "with the approval of both the synod in which the congregation is located and the comparable ecclesiastical entity of one or more church bodies with which a relationship of full communion has been established" (churchwide bylaw 9.91.01.).  Union congregations are "formed by two separate congregations that shall continue to exist as separate but cooperating entities.  The separate congregations in a union congregation whall be related to their respective church bodies that have established a relationship of full communion. . . churcwide bylaw 9.91.02). 

There are also 5 federated congregations with TEC, 3 union with TEC, 1 federated with the UCC, and 1 union with the UCC. 

Interestingly, the 2 ELCA-LCMS congregations in California (they go back to when the ALC and LCMS were in Altar and Pulpit fellowship, and by the above definitions they would be "union congregations") are no longer identified as such in the Yearbook. 

Pax, Steven+

Thanks for this data, Steven, now perhaps even Charles will have to admit that his opening salvo to this discussion was a little over the top. But I am not holding my breath....

Lou

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #288 on: February 01, 2012, 04:20:10 PM »

I also wonder: if the denominations are so similar that you and/or your congregation can be rostered with them -- why don't they come together as one?

Various reasons. Most often either personality, ethical, or ecclesial differences which some hold more tightly than the entire group. None of these need to be ultimately church-dividing by our confessions. They May be dividing but do not Have to be.

Lou

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #289 on: February 01, 2012, 04:22:30 PM »

You haven't answered the question why your congregation and/or you would want to be rostered with multiple denominations?

Why not seek Christian unity where and when you can?

Lou

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #290 on: February 01, 2012, 04:26:27 PM »
Why are you insisting on applying your denominational rules and paradigms to all other denominational arrangements? Are you not aware that the Lutheran confessions are open to more than one way of viewing such "man-made" arrangements and rites?


Because the actions in question -- an ELCA congregation becoming rostered with additional denominations -- involve my denomination.

Was the course of action in this congregation taken before or after the ruling from secretary Swartling which changed long-standing ELCA precedent from the likes of Sec Almen and the former presiding Bishops? I don't know...

Lou

Mike Gehlhausen

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #291 on: February 01, 2012, 04:43:35 PM »
Why are you insisting on applying your denominational rules and paradigms to all other denominational arrangements? Are you not aware that the Lutheran confessions are open to more than one way of viewing such "man-made" arrangements and rites?


Because the actions in question -- an ELCA congregation becoming rostered with additional denominations -- involve my denomination.


You haven't answered the question why your congregation and/or you would want to be rostered with multiple denominations?


I also wonder: if the denominations are so similar that you and/or your congregation can be rostered with them -- why don't they come together as one?

This attitude is probably one of the fears that TAALC had in establishing altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS.  That someone would propose that its under 100 congregations be absorbed into the LCMS.

Mike

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
    • View Profile
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #292 on: February 01, 2012, 04:51:26 PM »
Why are you insisting on applying your denominational rules and paradigms to all other denominational arrangements? Are you not aware that the Lutheran confessions are open to more than one way of viewing such "man-made" arrangements and rites?


Because the actions in question -- an ELCA congregation becoming rostered with additional denominations -- involve my denomination.

Was the course of action in this congregation taken before or after the ruling from secretary Swartling which changed long-standing ELCA precedent from the likes of Sec Almen and the former presiding Bishops? I don't know...

Lou


I'm not sure how much this matters, frankly.  Nothing that Secretary Swartling did or said consisted of a revision to the congregation's own governing documents, which almost certainly were enacted during a time when the ELCA had a clear and open acceptance of dual rostering.  Changing the ELCA's governing documents (by fiat rather than through the amendment process) might have an impact on the way in which synods are expected to apply the disciplinary rules.  It did not alter a congregation's rights and powers.

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #293 on: February 01, 2012, 05:04:32 PM »
And I ask again the question which no one has ever answered.
Why do you want to belong to two denominations?
The people in the congregations joining LCMC and NALC have clearly expressed their disagreements with the ELCA, disagreements so strong that they want to leave the discipline and policies of the ELCA.
I say:
O.k. I understand. So go. Please go. Go now.
Gather the votes in your congregation, go through the process and leave the ELCA. Hundreds have done this. I approve of this.
If you can't get the votes to leave, then leave as individuals. It is certainly possible to find a congregation nearby that doesn't ordain partnered gays or lesbians or snuggle with heretic Presbyterians or Episcopalians.
If not, round up your buddies and start a new congregation. Go.
But, I say again: I cannot understand why you want to be in the ELCA and LCMC or NALC or any of the other conglomerations of the alphabet with an "L" in them. It just doesn't make sense.

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #294 on: February 01, 2012, 05:26:06 PM »
So Mr. Erdner does read my comments once in a while! I thought so.  ;)

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13814
    • View Profile
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #295 on: February 01, 2012, 05:27:57 PM »
No matter how you slice and dice this situation, it is messy.  I can certainly see how each side (and those who sympathize with each side) can find reason why "their" side is in the right here.  While personally I do not have a dog in this hunt, I can still find things to sympathize with in all sides.  I can also see ways that likely all sides have acted in some ways badly.  Those who wanted to split from the ELCA were frustrated by their failure to reach the threshold of votes (and suspected a bit of skulduggery in coming up with voters who had not been effective members for some time) trying to find a way to satisfy not only their own personal views but that of the majority of members.  Those who had voted to stay in the ELCA were no doubt upset by attempts to get around the Synodically (and ELCA) set proceedures.  Add in a new congregational start (were those going to the new place still members or not - or were the ones who we leading the congregation into LCMC still members) and the prospect of valuable real estate and other assets to be had and you have a big mess.
 
I doubt that anyone's hands are really clean, but those of us watching from that outside want those we identify with in this fight not only to win but to be in the right.
 
I don't know the right of this.  I don't want to venture a guess - I don't know enough of all the circumstances or the technicalities.  I doubt that many if any of the rest of us do either.  Nor either are we called upon to judge.  This is what happens when 1) sinful people, with 2) sinful motives, and 3) passionate loyalties to serve God, and thus also 4) the best of motives get tangled up.  Easy to pick heros and villains truth everybody involved is likely in some way a hero and a villain, as are we all.
 
Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Chuck Sampson

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #296 on: February 01, 2012, 05:29:23 PM »
And I ask again the question which no one has ever answered.
Why do you want to belong to two denominations?
The people in the congregations joining LCMC and NALC have clearly expressed their disagreements with the ELCA, disagreements so strong that they want to leave the discipline and policies of the ELCA.
I say:
O.k. I understand. So go. Please go. Go now.
Gather the votes in your congregation, go through the process and leave the ELCA. Hundreds have done this. I approve of this.
If you can't get the votes to leave, then leave as individuals. It is certainly possible to find a congregation nearby that doesn't ordain partnered gays or lesbians or snuggle with heretic Presbyterians or Episcopalians.
If not, round up your buddies and start a new congregation. Go.
But, I say again: I cannot understand why you want to be in the ELCA and LCMC or NALC or any of the other conglomerations of the alphabet with an "L" in them. It just doesn't make sense.
Perhaps these individuals and congregations are staying just to irritate you, Charles . . . something like why you continue to post here.

Coach-Rev

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #297 on: February 01, 2012, 06:36:40 PM »
And I ask again the question which no one has ever answered.
Why do you want to belong to two denominations?
The people in the congregations joining LCMC and NALC have clearly expressed their disagreements with the ELCA, disagreements so strong that they want to leave the discipline and policies of the ELCA.
I say:
O.k. I understand. So go. Please go. Go now.
Gather the votes in your congregation, go through the process and leave the ELCA. Hundreds have done this. I approve of this.
If you can't get the votes to leave, then leave as individuals. It is certainly possible to find a congregation nearby that doesn't ordain partnered gays or lesbians or snuggle with heretic Presbyterians or Episcopalians.
If not, round up your buddies and start a new congregation. Go.
But, I say again: I cannot understand why you want to be in the ELCA and LCMC or NALC or any of the other conglomerations of the alphabet with an "L" in them. It just doesn't make sense.

Why should it matter to you, Charles?  It preserves the unity you claim to espouse.  Or perhaps you really don't want that kind of unity.

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
    • View Profile
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #298 on: February 01, 2012, 07:29:21 PM »
And I ask again the question which no one has ever answered.
Why do you want to belong to two denominations?
The people in the congregations joining LCMC and NALC have clearly expressed their disagreements with the ELCA, disagreements so strong that they want to leave the discipline and policies of the ELCA.
I say:
O.k. I understand. So go. Please go. Go now.
Gather the votes in your congregation, go through the process and leave the ELCA. Hundreds have done this. I approve of this.
If you can't get the votes to leave, then leave as individuals. It is certainly possible to find a congregation nearby that doesn't ordain partnered gays or lesbians or snuggle with heretic Presbyterians or Episcopalians.
If not, round up your buddies and start a new congregation. Go.
But, I say again: I cannot understand why you want to be in the ELCA and LCMC or NALC or any of the other conglomerations of the alphabet with an "L" in them. It just doesn't make sense.


Over time, when people here have argued for results that are either not allowed or not required by the ELCA's rules and procedures, you have admonished them to learn how the ELCA works.  In this case, you stand in their shoes and need to take heed of your own admonishments.  You may not "understand" why an ELCA congregation would join LCMC.  You might not like it.  But your personal point of view does not control here.  The congregation's governing documents do.

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #299 on: February 01, 2012, 10:39:32 PM »
The congregation's "governing documents," Mr. Gale, are not the whole deal and with regard to some things, certainly are not the final deal.
And, Pastor Cottingham, the "unity" I seek within the ELCA comes through people respecting properly-made decisions, respecting our leaders, and honoring our commitments to one another. I held off saying it for a long time, but people here convinced me that it needs to be said.
If you are not willing to abide by the policies and procedures by which we have - through our approved and proper processes - chosen to "be the church", then maybe you do not belong in the ELCA.
That cuts a lot of ways.
If you will not accept the ministry of a pastor who was not ordained by a bishop, then you do not belong in the ELCA.
If you want to call someone off the ELCA clergy roster or not on the roster of one of our ecumenical partners as your pastor, then you do not belong in the ELCA.
If you will not let a synod or congregation that now wishes to do so issue a call to a partnered gay or lesbian pastor, then maybe you do not belong in the ELCA.
These are not matters of our eternal salvation - though some seem to contend that they are - but they are serious matters concerning how we have agreed to live together within the ELCA and order our life within the ELCA.
And I still do not understand why those whose attitudes towards the ELCA are those expressed by the policies of the NALC and LCMC want to be a part of the ELCA. I am glad that some - like Erma and Steven - stay in and work with us. But for some others? You can't be happy here and it is not healthy for you to be here. So....
 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 10:41:13 PM by Charles_Austin »