Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation

[George Erdner]

According to those who'll defend the ELCA against anything and everything, to know what the ELCA is all about one simply needs to read it's formal documents. Forget what it actually does. That's irrelevant. Just read what it has written down.

And yet, these same people seem to be able to condemn the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ as being "formed to be in opposition to the ELCA" even though there isn't a single word in any of the founding documents of the LCMC that support that unChristian slander about that denomination.

How can such a hypocrite look in the mirror while wearing a clerical collar?

[Charles_Austin]

Mr. Erdner writes:
And yet, these same people seem to be able to condemn the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ as being "formed to be in opposition to the ELCA" even though there isn't a single word in any of the founding documents of the LCMC that support that unChristian slander about that denomination.
I comment:
Well, let us not look at their "founding documents," but at what they actually do. I think Mr. Erdner favors that. And what does one conclude then? Did the LCMC just pop up without a reason? And what was the reason for it to pop up? Might it not be to oppose the ELCA and provide a place for congregations to do so?

Mr. Erdner writes:
How can such a hypocrite look in the mirror while wearing a clerical collar?
I comment:
More name-calling and yet another mean-spirited comment. The real hypocrisy here is remaining in an ELCA congregation while holding the views that Mr. Erdner posts here day after day.

[Dan Fienen]

In trying to find out what the ELCA actually teaches and what its confession actually means, where should we look, to the founding documents and formal confessional statements, or to what is actually taught in the colleges and seminaries by the actual leaders of the ELCA?

Dan

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Fienen writes:
In trying to find out what the ELCA actually teaches and what its confession actually means, where should we look, to the founding documents and formal confessional statements, or to what is actually taught in the colleges and seminaries by the actual leaders of the ELCA?

I comment:
Both. Or either. Some of us do not see any contradiction. And some of us are not panicked into psychotic fear if our colleges and seminaries allow enough academic freedom to explore and examine all views. Nor do we call for a purge of any faculty member of student that does so.

[Dan Fienen]

So, when I am asked to accept the ELCA as an orthodox Lutheran church body it is on the basis that at least some of the people involved in the ELCA are orthodox Lutherans but of course there is enough room and academic freedom for ELCA teachers to be anything else they want to explore.  Why get so uptight about what is taught?

Dan

[George Erdner]

In trying to find out what the ELCA actually teaches and what its confession actually means, where should we look, to the founding documents and formal confessional statements, or to what is actually taught in the colleges and seminaries by the actual leaders of the ELCA?

Dan

According to the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders, look at the founding documents and formal statements. Stoffregen in particular keeps waving the ELCA's "Statement of Faith" around as a sort of magic talisman to disprove any accusations made about the ELCA's actual practice. Perhaps the ELCA's motto should be "Do as we say, not as we do". That would be more appropriate than, "God's work, our hands".

Then again, other ELCA self-anointed cheerleaders follow the path of recommending whichever one best supports the point they are trying to make at the time. If confronting someone who gets a petty detail wrong, then the exact wording of the ELCA's documents is something sacred and carved in stone. If confronting someone who notices the inconsistencies in the ELCA's teachings and actions, then being open minded about supporting alternative understandings is a virtue.

My best recommendation is to ignore the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders. That makes life much more pleasant.

[Don Whitbeck]

In trying to find out what the ELCA actually teaches and what its confession actually means, where should we look, to the founding documents and formal confessional statements, or to what is actually taught in the colleges and seminaries by the actual leaders of the ELCA?

Dan

According to the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders, look at the founding documents and formal statements. Stoffregen in particular keeps waving the ELCA's "Statement of Faith" around as a sort of magic talisman to disprove any accusations made about the ELCA's actual practice. Perhaps the ELCA's motto should be "Do as we say, not as we do". That would be more appropriate than, "God's work, our hands".

Then again, other ELCA self-anointed cheerleaders follow the path of recommending whichever one best supports the point they are trying to make at the time. If confronting someone who gets a petty detail wrong, then the exact wording of the ELCA's documents is something sacred and carved in stone. If confronting someone who notices the inconsistencies in the ELCA's teachings and actions, then being open minded about supporting alternative understandings is a virtue.

My best recommendation is to ignore the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders. That makes life much more pleasant.

My best recommendation is to ignore the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders. That makes life much more pleasant.  

Couldn't agree more, with your statement.  I don't think the ELCA is orthodoxal in her beliefs, but more in the way of being antinomianal.

What do you Think George?

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Fienen writes:
So, when I am asked to accept the ELCA as an orthodox Lutheran church body it is on the basis that at least some of the people involved in the ELCA are orthodox Lutherans but of course there is enough room and academic freedom for ELCA teachers to be anything else they want to explore.  Why get so uptight about what is taught?
I comment:
Are you unable to understand the difference between academic discussion, investigation and exploration and what is taught as what we believe?

Mr. Erdner writes:
My best recommendation is to ignore the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders. That makes life much more pleasant.
I comment:
Well, this cheerleader was not "self-anointed." I was ordained to be a "cheerleader" for the Gospel and for the church body that called me to Word and Sacrament ministry and in whose disclipline I exercise that ministry. And so far as I know, Pastor Stoffregen holds the same ordination, as do the other ELCA pastors here.
The "self-anointed" one here is the one who persistently, consistently and with vengeance ignores, misrepresents and denounces the teachings and practice of the church body to which he belongs in favor of his own unique views which he holds out as those of God over against those of the church body he so despises.

[Kevin Cook]

It's still 2011, I can read this board and post.   

To Confessional Lutheran:  I thought you were in the LCMS now.  I thought you were done with the ELCA and had nothing more to say about it.  That's what you said in a post recently, that you were not going to say anything more about the ELCA.

I think I will go to Georgia and try to get George's congregation to join the LCMC or start an LCMC congregation near George so he can leave and quick bi*****g about the ELCA constantly.  We know you hate it, George. 

George, if you ever leave the ELCA, will you quit writing about it?  Just curious. 

And from a few on this board, we also are aware that the ELCA is bad and the LCMS is the truth.  Now I know the truth and have been properly catechized. 

The day that the ELCA becomes confessional and orthodox is the day I leave.  I am not in the LCMS or WELS.  I don't want to be.  I want to be in the ELCA.  It is liberal.  Our congregation actually had a couple people leave because we were not liberal enough.  We are a rather conservative liberal congregation. 

There is so little actual conversation anywhere anymore.  And to be honest, some I can't even understand.  I have no idea what some of you are trying to say.  So maybe I am actually losing it.

The facebook sites on WO in the LCMS are mostly putdowns and mockery or just "NO"  Or from the number one inquisitor, "when are you going to address LGBT?"  Over and over and over and over.

The exposing the elca site digs up stuff from years and years ago.  I sent a comment which never got posted.  A woman had made a point supporting the ELCA and a man told her she needed to examine her faith.  I said that maybe her faith gave her the freedom to believe the way she did.  That's all.  Nothing inflammatory, just a simple statement.  But it goes against what they want to show, that the elca is bad.  And there were only 3 comments when I sent mine.  But my comment didn't support the agenda. 

And I am so sick of hearing about herchurch.  We know it's there.  Now exposing site posts a letter from Mark Chavez where he says that herchurch is put out there as cutting edge.  Well, the ipad and kindle I think are cutting edge and most people in my congregation know about them.  I will bet that only a few of us in my congregation know about herchurch.  And the one's that I have told have said, that's just wrong, and then gone on about their lives.  It is a bunch of others that make it a big issue.

This site has so few threads that don't degenerate quickly.  We get a positive one, Erma gets a long awaited call, and that takes a wrong turn in my opinion. 

I didn't think it was true until lately but I have been trying to come up with reasons and excuses to not go to my church.  I have visited some other churches.  ELCA ones but I am just a visitor.  And a couple of non ELCA and non Lutheran ones.  It's just nice to go and worship and not hear about anything going on in the church that is negative, gossip, or conflicts, etc.

And the more I talk to other pastors and non Lutherans I am starting to believe what I hear them saying.  That Lutherans will never get into Heaven because they are going to be standing at the gates arguing about which foot to put forward, which hand holds the latch, how to bow, how not to bow, should you cross yourself or not, do you pray outside the gate or after you step through, who goes first, is it by age, gender, family, LCMS, WELS, LCMC, TAALC, NALC, ILC, ELCA, etc, etc, etc. 

And everyone else will be in Heaven wondering why the Lutherans don't just come in.

So I am at that place again where I am happier when I am not here. 

Happy New Year to everyone. 

Have a great 2012.  I may pop by occasionally.

Kevin 

[George Erdner]

My best recommendation is to ignore the ELCA's self-anointed cheerleaders. That makes life much more pleasant.

Couldn't agree more, with your statement.  I don't think the ELCA is orthodoxal in her beliefs, but more in the way of being antinomianal.

What do you Think George?

I think that given that the ELCA has distributed all real power and authority to the synods, who in turn wield minimal power and authority over congregations, that really worrying very much about what the ELCA does, teaches, or preaches at the national or synodical level is relatively unimportant. What really matters to the individual Lutheran Christian is the local congregation. I think the practices and teachings one encounters at the local congregational level are extremely important. I think that the actions and teachings of the ELCA's national leadership are only marginally important to an individual Lutheran Christian most of the time. One exception would be when the local congregation needs to call a new pastor. Another might be for someone who feels called to the ministry. And of course, there are situations like this where the local bishop is acting like one of the De Medicis. There might be other exceptions, but I can't think of any right now.

[George Erdner]

I  think I will go to Georgia and try to get George's congregation to join the LCMC or start an LCMC congregation near George so he can leave and quick bi*****g about the ELCA constantly.  We know you hate it, George. 

George, if you ever leave the ELCA, will you quit writing about it?  Just curious. 

Talk about false witness! I do not hate the ELCA. I just have no respect for the current Presiding Bishop, a position I take based on his actions and the actions that took place under his leadership. Replace him with a confessional Lutheran who sets on a course of undoing the damage Hanson has done, and I'll be totally on board. Replace Hanson with a confessional Lutheran who is open to repealing the errant 2009 Social Statement and restoring the ELCA to scriptural faithfulness, and I'll be lobbying the NALC to enter into merger talks with the ELCA.

[DCharlton]

And some of us are not panicked into psychotic fear if our colleges and seminaries allow enough academic freedom to explore and examine all views. Nor do we call for a purge of any faculty member of student that does so.

Having attended an ELCA seminary, I can say confidently that what you claim is not the case.  20 years ago it was not the case that "all views" could be explored.  All views from the left could be explored.  Views that are conservative or evangeliical could not be explored.  For instance, one was not free to explore the merits of inclusive language, women's ordination or biblical inerrancy.  Those were settled.  One could openly question the ELCA policy on same gender relationships, but one had to be quite careful as to when and where one would defend V&E.  I can give further examples.  So unless things have changed, no such academic freedom exists.

 

[Dan Fienen]

<<snip>>

And the more I talk to other pastors and non Lutherans I am starting to believe what I hear them saying.  That Lutherans will never get into Heaven because they are going to be standing at the gates arguing about which foot to put forward, which hand holds the latch, how to bow, how not to bow, should you cross yourself or not, do you pray outside the gate or after you step through, who goes first, is it by age, gender, family, LCMS, WELS, LCMC, TAALC, NALC, ILC, ELCA, etc, etc, etc. 

And everyone else will be in Heaven wondering why the Lutherans don't just come in.

So I am at that place again where I am happier when I am not here. 

Happy New Year to everyone. 

Have a great 2012.  I may pop by occasionally.

Kevin

It is too bad that the conversation here is not up to your enlightened liberal standards, and that the concerns of some of us are beneath your notice and concern - much too enlightened apparently to think such things worthy of consideration.  If you are so narrow minded and rigid to consider the theological concerns discussed here as having no more significance than what foot to lead off with, which hand to grasp the latch and the proper method for bowing, then perhaps this is not the place for you to do your intellectual slumming.  What do you find interesting and important to discuss?

Dan

[Charles_Austin]

Once again, Kevin boldly posts what he senses and feels here. Good for him.
In my not-so-humble opinion...
The prevailing view here is that the ELCA is apostate, heretical trash; that all those who disagree with the ELCA are beleaguered, falsely persecuted and unjustly ignored by bishops. (When the real reason may be that they are whining and complaining people who poison the atmosphere of a congregation and or a synod and use their ideology as a cover for incompetence.)
The prevailing view is that all those in ELCA leadership, from the Presiding Bishop to any synodical bishop who has not instantly found calls for "traditionalists" are corrupt, insensitive manipulators.
The prevailing view is that there should be rejoicing in heaven and on earth and beneath the seas when a congregation leaves the ELCA.
The prevailing view is that anything Pastor Stoffregen posts is wrong.
The prevailing view is that anyone who has a kind word to say about the ELCA is a "cheerleader" and an uncritical sycophant.
The prevailing view is that anyone in the LCMS who even raises questions about women's role in the church is a stalking horse for the dreaded issue of ordination for women, something which sends the whole heavenly host into a tizzy.
The prevailing view is that the nasty postings and shuck-and-jive fiddle faddle of Mr. Erdner is o.k. (This must be true because I'm the only one who seems to find his comments odious, not to mention uninformed.)
The prevailing view is that no idea, no understanding of doctrine or scripture, no spiritual experience, no development in mission, piety, liturgy or language that was not firmly in place in 1580 could ever have value.
The prevailing view is that if something even leans "liberal," it is to be opposed with inquisitorial vehemence.
So this site becomes nothing more, nothing better than those other sites run by often-crazed ideologues whose agenda is victory, not dialogue, whose desire is to destroy inter-Lutheran cooperation rather than further it whenever possible.
Half the posters, even the "traditionalist" ones, can't even pass muster with the LCMS. Pastor Awtry started LCMS, buy sought ordination elsewhere; no one here who has left the ELCA has been received into the LCMS ministerium.
That's the way things look to me. But then I'm a liberal Lutheran in a liberal denomination, and I am still totally puzzled by those who thought that a merger of the ALC, LCA, and ELCA would produce anything but a denomination that was moderate to liberal and getting more liberal.

[Chuck Sampson]

The day that the ELCA becomes confessional and orthodox is the day I leave.   

Just wow . . . but it will be interesting to see how Charles and Brian respond to this admission.