Author Topic: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation  (Read 93034 times)

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #270 on: February 01, 2012, 01:46:24 PM »

I have said it before. I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Or more openly ecumenical........ when the differences are seen as relatively unimportant. I am dual-rostered with Augsburg Lutheran Churches and a district of LCMC. Some of my colleagues in ALC are dual-rostered with NALC at the invitation of NALC. My congregation could probably be triple-rostered with all of these entities if they wished.


Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.

And thus it is when one's confession is wedded to an earthly institution rather than a doctrinal body of faith.

Ideally, we would all be part of the evangelical Lutheran church.  The very fact that we do not believe, teach and confess the same things is waht prevents us from being in fellowship.

But I see no problem whatsoever with being affiliated with multiple earthly institutions which agree that they confess the same thing.

Mike

James_Gale

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #271 on: February 01, 2012, 01:47:08 PM »

I have said it before. I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Or more openly ecumenical........ when the differences are seen as relatively unimportant. I am dual-rostered with Augsburg Lutheran Churches and a district of LCMC. Some of my colleagues in ALC are dual-rostered with NALC at the invitation of NALC. My congregation could probably be triple-rostered with all of these entities if they wished.


Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.


Sure.  And having a conversation with two or three women is a "bit" like being married to them as well.  But it's a very small "bit."

George Erdner

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #272 on: February 01, 2012, 01:49:23 PM »

I have said it before. I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Or more openly ecumenical........ when the differences are seen as relatively unimportant. I am dual-rostered with Augsburg Lutheran Churches and a district of LCMC. Some of my colleagues in ALC are dual-rostered with NALC at the invitation of NALC. My congregation could probably be triple-rostered with all of these entities if they wished.


Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.


Sure.  And having a conversation with two or three women is a "bit" like being married to them as well.  But it's a very small "bit."

Of course, such ecclesial polygamy is perfectly fine if a congregation is hitched to the ELCA and PCUSA. It's OK to be hitched to the ELCA and RIC.
 
I cannot believe the unmitigated hypocrisy of some of the ELCA's apologists.
 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 02:11:14 PM by George Erdner »

pearson

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #273 on: February 01, 2012, 01:57:34 PM »

And thus it is when one's confession is wedded to an earthly institution rather than a doctrinal body of faith.


Is there any such thing as a "doctrinal body of faith" that is not also an earthly institution?

Tom Pearson

SmithL

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #274 on: February 01, 2012, 02:00:10 PM »
Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.

Why not?  The ELCA is already trying to redefine marriage to be more inclusive.
 ::)

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #275 on: February 01, 2012, 02:04:06 PM »

And thus it is when one's confession is wedded to an earthly institution rather than a doctrinal body of faith.


Is there any such thing as a "doctrinal body of faith" that is not also an earthly institution?

Tom Pearson

The Book of Concord.

Somewhat, by necessity, earthly institutions have elaborated on this doctrinal body of faith to address new controversies.  And thus earthly institutions must determine whether they share doctrinal unity.  But if they do share doctrinal unity, then being affiliated with any and all earthly institutions which do so should be fine.  Even God-pleasing.

Mike

Mike

pearson

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #276 on: February 01, 2012, 02:11:31 PM »

The Book of Concord.

Somewhat, by necessity, earthly institutions have elaborated on this doctrinal body of faith to address new controversies.


Oh.  You were using the curious phrase "doctrinal body of faith" in a way I couldn't recognize.  It didn't occur to me that "doctrinal body of faith" could be referring to a written text.

Tom Pearson

Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #277 on: February 01, 2012, 02:14:50 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes:
Let me see if I understand this. It's OK for a congregation to be simultaneously part of the ELCA and PCUSA, because those two organizations came to some sort of agreement. But to be part of the ELCA and another Lutheran church body "is either cowardly or duplicitous"?

I comment:
Would someone please explain to Mr. Erdner - for the thousandth time - that no congregation in the ELCA is ever - repeat ever - "simultaneously part of the ELCA and PCUSA"? This does not happen. Ever. Nothing in any ecumenical agreement envisions congregations simultaneously part of two denominations.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #278 on: February 01, 2012, 02:16:55 PM »
For how many years did the ELCA allow congregations to be members of the ELCA and LCMS? Weren't there a handful at one time? I thought I remember reading about how awful it was that the LCMS was going to be forcing those churches to choose one or the other. The point is that if the issue was raised in the past regarding ELCA/LCMS dual rostered congregations, the precedent should be acknowledged.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #279 on: February 01, 2012, 02:23:25 PM »
I believe, Peter, that those situations came from a time even before there was an ELCA. And it was your people who wanted to put an end to them.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #280 on: February 01, 2012, 03:23:55 PM »

Would someone please explain to Mr. Erdner - for the thousandth time - that no congregation in the ELCA is ever - repeat ever - "simultaneously part of the ELCA and PCUSA"? This does not happen. Ever. Nothing in any ecumenical agreement envisions congregations simultaneously part of two denominations.

You might want to open up page 290 of the ELCA's 2012 Yearbook, Charles.  There are 4 federated congregations with the PCUSA and 1 union congregation.

Quote from: 2012 Yearbook
Federated congregations are congregations that are formed and maintained "with the approval of both the synod in which the congregation is located and the comparable ecclesiastical entity of one or more church bodies with which a relationship of full communion has been established" (churchwide bylaw 9.91.01.).  Union congregations are "formed by two separate congregations that shall continue to exist as separate but cooperating entities.  The separate congregations in a union congregation whall be related to their respective church bodies that have established a relationship of full communion. . . churcwide bylaw 9.91.02). 

There are also 5 federated congregations with TEC, 3 union with TEC, 1 federated with the UCC, and 1 union with the UCC. 

Interestingly, the 2 ELCA-LCMS congregations in California (they go back to when the ALC and LCMS were in Altar and Pulpit fellowship, and by the above definitions they would be "union congregations") are no longer identified as such in the Yearbook. 

Pax, Steven+
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #281 on: February 01, 2012, 03:27:23 PM »

I have said it before. I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Or more openly ecumenical........ when the differences are seen as relatively unimportant. I am dual-rostered with Augsburg Lutheran Churches and a district of LCMC. Some of my colleagues in ALC are dual-rostered with NALC at the invitation of NALC. My congregation could probably be triple-rostered with all of these entities if they wished.


Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.


Sure.  And having a conversation with two or three women is a "bit" like being married to them as well.  But it's a very small "bit."


The covenant relationship between a congregation and its denomination is more than just having a conversation with each other.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #282 on: February 01, 2012, 03:35:15 PM »

I have said it before. I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Or more openly ecumenical........ when the differences are seen as relatively unimportant. I am dual-rostered with Augsburg Lutheran Churches and a district of LCMC. Some of my colleagues in ALC are dual-rostered with NALC at the invitation of NALC. My congregation could probably be triple-rostered with all of these entities if they wished.


Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.


Sure.  And having a conversation with two or three women is a "bit" like being married to them as well.  But it's a very small "bit."


The covenant relationship between a congregation and its denomination is more than just having a conversation with each other.

Perhaps for the ELCA. But how so in general principle?

And in such a case, why does the ELCA provide such "polygamist" arrangements as federated and union congregations?

Mike

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #283 on: February 01, 2012, 03:35:58 PM »
Why? It's a bit like being married to two or three women.

Why not?  The ELCA is already trying to redefine marriage to be more inclusive.
 ::)


Show me where the ELCA has done this.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Estranged members sue ELCA-LCMC congregation
« Reply #284 on: February 01, 2012, 04:06:49 PM »
I believe the attempt to be dually affiliated is either cowardly or duplicitous.

Any more cowardly and duplicitous than calling a pastor not on the roster of the ELCA?  Any more cowardly and duplicitous than creating a shadow candidacy committee for those unwilling to follow ELCA policies.  Any more cowardly and duplicitous that bishops who openly announce their unwillingness to enforce ELCA policies?  Any more cowardly and duplicitous than one ELCA bishop attending a celebration for a pastor who openly defied his own bishop?

The precedent was set long ago.  Don't like ELCA policies?  Can't get them changed through proper channels and/or procedures?  Simply make up your own rules.  See what you can get away with.  Cry foul when you get caught red handed and have to face the consequences.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?