University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold

[Robert Johnson]

The meeting of LCMS district leaders responsible for North American missions has concluded. From what my husband heard in St. Louis there is concern about internet misinformation regarding decisions related to the University Lutheran Chapel. Some statements on various blogs may in fact be slanderous.  I hope this forum is not a place where misinformation has or will be passed on.

When the decision makers choose not to be transparent and to not communicate effectively, it's human nature to fill in the blanks.   Don't want that?  Tell people clearly what is going on.

[Daniel L. Gard]

The meeting of LCMS district leaders responsible for North American missions has concluded. From what my husband heard in St. Louis there is concern about internet misinformation regarding decisions related to the University Lutheran Chapel. Some statements on various blogs may in fact be slanderous. 

Mrs. Meyer,

Can you point us to the potentially "slanderous" (libelous?) blogs and indicate what has been said that qualifies?

[George Erdner]

It doesn't change my objection to calling university students "superior". Nor does it change my objection to equating students to those who enlist in the military, regardless of who makes the comparison.

Students have to show superior qualities in order to get into college. They aren't selected randomly. Many or most of them are surprised that they have to work a lot harder than they did in high school to get good grades; in high school they were often admired or resented for their ability to learn.

That is some of the most elitist blather I've ever read. That is no reason to justify special ministry programs for them when others who aren't in college, for whatever reason, are virtually ignored.
 

One last thought. The Church needs to be there for young people wherever they are. On campus? YES! In the military? YES! On the streets of our cities and villiages? YES! In prisons and jails? YES!

So why do so many Christian church bodies spend large portions of their resources on campus ministries for the elite few who made it into college, and next to nothing on those who can't afford college?
 

[JMK]

Hypothetically, let’s say the ULC situation was totally different. Let us suppose a few years down the road, some old fashioned retro hippie dippy types were running the place with a watered down liturgy, banging guitars and clanging cymbals. Than let suppose that they had cell groups - not the structured Bible study kind of cell groups mind you, but the kind where they just sit around in a circle, hold hands, give each other back massages and sing Love Is But A Song We Sing, Kumbaya and other great classics from the past.

They say,...what matters is that you need to continue to support the ministry even if that means allowing us to rent below the prevailing market rate, helping us out with an $11,000 per year subsidy, plus continue to spend lots of money to repair the place – as it looks like it is going to need some major repair work soon.  O.K., so we don’t have that many students from the University that is nearby – in comparison to those who claim to have a Lutheran background, but we do shuttle students in from other universities where they are bored stiff with the services that are offered at those other places. And we have sent many of our students on to Seminary where they are able to be change agents in the Synod for grandpa and grandma’s way of doing things in the church. Our grandparents put a lot of money into helping to renovate this chapel. We have a legacy to maintain and it does not matter how many students participate in the ministry. What matters is that we continue to witness in the way that shows honor and respect to those who have gone before us – by keeping their traditions intact. This is your Grandfather's Synod after all.

[Dave Benke]

That is some of the most elitist blather I've ever read  The words "elitist blather" are resonant, aren't they?  There's a whole thread waiting to happen on ministry to young adults apart from the current topic which is more controverted.  And inside that thread would be a sub-unit on the culture of college/certification/qualification/delayed adolescence/elitism that would delve into whether college is even good for much of anything any more for most students. 

That doesn't make your point valid, George - I'm sure you're aware that Luther was a Campus Pastor/Professor.  Wittenberg?  Castle Church?  Lectures on Galatians?   Don't shoot the Founder, for Pete's sake. 

Dave Benke

[Jeff-MN]

The meeting of LCMS district leaders responsible for North American missions has concluded. From what my husband heard in St. Louis there is concern about internet misinformation regarding decisions related to the University Lutheran Chapel. Some statements on various blogs may in fact be slanderous.  I hope this forum is not a place where misinformation has or will be passed on.

Fr Kind has been careful to relate only the facts on the ULC website:
http://www.ulcmn.org/Files/Pages/SaveULC.html

[swbohler]

JAQ,

Could you show where upcoming major repair expenses for the property are listed?  You have mentioned this before, but I do not recall seeing anything that says what exactly these needed repairs are, or when they will need to be done, or how much they will cost.

[George Erdner]

That is some of the most elitist blather I've ever read  The words "elitist blather" are resonant, aren't they?  There's a whole thread waiting to happen on ministry to young adults apart from the current topic which is more controverted.  And inside that thread would be a sub-unit on the culture of college/certification/qualification/delayed adolescence/elitism that would delve into whether college is even good for much of anything any more for most students. 

That doesn't make your point valid, George - I'm sure you're aware that Luther was a Campus Pastor/Professor.  Wittenberg?  Castle Church?  Lectures on Galatians?   Don't shoot the Founder, for Pete's sake. 

Dave Benke

It took me a while to come up with "blather" as an acceptable euphemism for what I wanted to type.
 
The blather is that getting accepted into a college is evidence that the person accepted is superior to everyone else. That is blather. Good, qualified people get into colleges. So do people who aren't very qualified, but who have the financial means to handle the tuition. Large, muscular people who can play football or basketball get into colleges, even if they can't spell their own names.
 
And, many smart, qualified people can't get into colleges because they are too poor to pay the tuition. but too rich to qualify for some grants. Some can't opt for college because they have life requirements that they earn a living. Some don't have the gifts for academic learning, but as kinesthetic learners can train for a respectable and rewarding career actually working, such as becoming a carpenter, plumber, electrician, welder, or practitioner of some other trade.
 
That is not to say that people who make it into colleges are inferior. It is to say that the very idea of ranking people as "superior" and, by implication, "inferior" is simply wrong, on many, many levels.
 
As for the situation in 16th century Germany compared with 21st century Minnesota, those are two very different places and times, with very different circumstances.

[Donald_Kirchner]

The meeting of LCMS district leaders responsible for North American missions has concluded. From what my husband heard in St. Louis there is concern about internet misinformation regarding decisions related to the University Lutheran Chapel. Some statements on various blogs may in fact be slanderous.  I hope this forum is not a place where misinformation has or will be passed on.

From what your husband heard which is what others there told him they heard or read, which is what someone else heard or read... concerns...might be...

Remember the Watergate non-denial denial? Is this the non-accusation accusation? Lord have mercy, Mrs. Meyer!

[Harry Edmon]

Gee, back again to the original topic - the sinful sale of the ULC property by MNS - Lutheran Satire has now weighed in:

http://youtu.be/9nbZgWa5G6I

[Harry Edmon]

The meeting of LCMS district leaders responsible for North American missions has concluded. From what my husband heard in St. Louis there is concern about internet misinformation regarding decisions related to the University Lutheran Chapel. Some statements on various blogs may in fact be slanderous.  I hope this forum is not a place where misinformation has or will be passed on.

Stating there is misinformation that may be slanderous without stating what the misinformation is, is itself slanderous.   Note, I am not claiming this about mariermeyer or her husband.   I am stating that about those making these "vague" claims of misinformation that her husband heard.   If there is sin, expose it!

[Donald_Kirchner]

Indeed, from what I've read there are concerns about internet misinformation regarding what others are writing regarding decisions related to the University Lutheran Chapel. Some statements regarding such concerns on various blogs may in fact be slanderous.  I hope this forum is not a place where what might be slanderous speculation and misinformation has or will be passed on.

Not pointing any fingers, mind you. Simply expressing what might be concerns about what might be concerns about what might have taken place based upon what someone might have heard about a certain situation.

[mqll]

Tom Messer,

Hey—let's go backwards through your post, shall we?

As for the paper you wrote in response to Pr. Curtis' paper/presentation, I read it when you first posted it here a few weeks back or so.  I don't think I need to write a detailed response to it.  My response would be rather short:  You have chosen to hone in on one aspect of Pr. Curtis' paper/presentation and have written a response to that one aspect, giving the reader the impression that this is the only thing Pr. Curtis has said on the matter.  Then, you appear in other venues around the blogosphere and make ridiculous and mocking statements, which misrepresent Pr. Curtis' paper/presentation, saying things like, "According to Pr. Curtis, none of this should matter, since God will save His elect," as if Pr. Curtis has argued that we should all sit around and twiddle our thumbs and do nothing, since God will do His thing and not lose any of His elect, when you have to know that this is not at all what Pr. Curtis has argued.

First, the great thing about writing things down, is that people can say things, but then, you know...things are written down.

So, in my paper, I can point out to page 15, where I I show out how the Confessions looks at election differently than Pr Curtis. On p 17 I object to his position that the elect will like only liturgical worship. And on p. 19 I talk about his objections concerning guilt motivated missions work—how the issue is one of stewardship and election really doesn't solve the problem as he thinks it would.

You can make statements then—"[you] have written a response to that one aspect, giving the reader the impression that this is the only thing Pr. Curtis has said on the matter."—but that is why we write things down. To say "Well, let the reader decide that."

Now let's go to:

You did get it wrong, Mark, because you jumped into this discussion and honed in on what I (and others) were saying about students and vocations and then went all crazy and started telling us that we were saying things we weren't saying.  Just like you did in response to Pr. Curtis' paper.  Perhaps you should follow your own advice and re-read what was written and your responses to what was written.

I am CRAZY!!!! I'm CRAZY for the truth!!!

Eh, that sounded better in my head with the music and all....

Anyway, with vocation, I'd point to my initial post:

http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=4114.msg238650#msg238650

That was my original thought. I think I stand by it—it neatly covers the peer minister idea. (so helpful to have things written—and hyperlinks!)

Students have a vocation the same as any lay person has a vocation. And that includes being a Christian.

That is the vocation that is important here. What does it mean to be a lay Christian? That is the issue. Y'all confuse it with your "student is a student, farmer is a farmer" talk. The vocation of a Lutheran student is to be a Lutheran. What does that mean? That's the issue. Not that a student is a student.

Now, as to the last comment:
But, I'll stop now, because I know that, whether or not Pr. Weedon and I are in complete agreement regarding the doctrine of vocation (which I'm pretty sure we are), I do completely agree with him that it would be rather fruitless to carry on this discussion with you.

I must say, I look forward to the Koin. Because there, we are not going to be able to walk away from one another when the going gets tough. We are not going to be able to ignore comments and throw up our hands and say discussion is "fruitless".

Nope. Things will be different then. I look forward to it.

[Mike Gehlhausen]

Anyway, with vocation, I'd point to my initial post:

http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=4114.msg238650#msg238650

That was my original thought. I think I stand by it—it neatly covers the peer minister idea. (so helpful to have things written—and hyperlinks!)

Students have a vocation the same as any lay person has a vocation. And that includes being a Christian.

That is the vocation that is important here. What does it mean to be a lay Christian? That is the issue. Y'all confuse it with your "student is a student, farmer is a farmer" talk. The vocation of a Lutheran student is to be a Lutheran. What does that mean? That's the issue. Not that a student is a student.

Now, as to the last comment:
But, I'll stop now, because I know that, whether or not Pr. Weedon and I are in complete agreement regarding the doctrine of vocation (which I'm pretty sure we are), I do completely agree with him that it would be rather fruitless to carry on this discussion with you.

I must say, I look forward to the Koin. Because there, we are not going to be able to walk away from one another when the going gets tough. We are not going to be able to ignore comments and throw up our hands and say discussion is "fruitless".

Nope. Things will be different then. I look forward to it.

I look forward to the Koinonia Project for this very reason as well.

Before things tended to go awry, I got a taste of this in the discussion between Dr. Becker and Pr. Yakimow on womens' ordination which expanded into ministry and then later the very distinction of what we know about God from His revelation in Jesus Christ and what we do not and cannot know and just where we begin the theological task considering this distinction.

Indeed, it is perhaps for this very reason -- that people will be encouraged, almost even obligated, to engage each other and reconcile disagreement -- that I believe the Koinonia Project has the most worth.  Concord and unity in confession may never be reached even after 10 or 20 years seeking it.  However, the differences in confession will have been drawn out much more starkly and attempts to obfuscate a position will be more difficult.

Mike

[George Erdner]

Gee, back again to the original topic - the sinful sale of the ULC property by MNS - Lutheran Satire has now weighed in:

http://youtu.be/9nbZgWa5G6I

Am I correct in understanding that this incident is simply an isolated thing that is happening in a vacuum, and discussion of the larger issues raised by this incident are therefore off-topic? Does this incident have nothing to do with larger plans for stewardship of resources for ministry and outreach?