Author Topic: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold  (Read 76383 times)

mariemeyer

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #330 on: September 22, 2011, 05:49:36 PM »
Just to set the record straight - as far as this particular evangelical catholic is concerned - I have no opposition to well-prepared and mature laity leading studies; I next to never share my Sunday Bible Class as I regard that a primary feature of my calling here, but have on occasion, last one I think was a dear lady who is a Bible translator and works in areas hostile to Christianity; our LWML always meets without the pastor and engages in Bible Study and discussion; opposition to small group ministry (i.e., conventicles) as it was at one time being pushed is not at all the same thing as saying that a student cannot lead a Bible study.  Most pastors I know would be delighted to hear of students getting together to study the Word of God; provided, of course, that it didn't BECOME a conventicle by substituting for the regular nourishment of the congregation gathered around the table of the Lord's Word and Meal.  Next straw man, please?

Will:

Loved the comment about " a dear lady who is a Bible translator" being invited on a rare occasion to teach your Sunday adult Bible Class.   During the years I served on the LBT Board  we fanned out to local churches to lead Sunday Bible Class, do a "temple talk" and in the case of clergy Board members, preach. As a result of the Board practice I had the opportunity to speak in LCMS churches through out the country. I wonder if I was thought of as a "dear lady?"  Better that than  "dear old lady." ;)

Marie

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #331 on: September 22, 2011, 05:55:03 PM »
First toleration; then equality; then extermination.  Yup, Krauth was bang on right.

Wow, Krauth spoke out on offensive jihad, the three-stage process describing how Islam is to be advanced throughout the world? Nothing new under the sun.

http://www.lhmmen.com/studyvideofull.asp?ID=12218&fid=1981&mode=
Don Kirchner

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Weedon

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #332 on: September 22, 2011, 05:57:16 PM »
Well, since Islam is justly regarded as a Christian heresy at its foundation; um, YES.  :)

Weedon

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #333 on: September 22, 2011, 06:02:52 PM »
Marie,

LOL.  Old is always relative, I suppose.  I never consider anyone old who is younger than my parents - and my mom was born in 1917.  So you are still a dear YOUNG lady. 

George Erdner

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #334 on: September 22, 2011, 06:23:18 PM »
Every Lutheran congregation I've belonged to (including a couple next door to universities) was family-focused.  Unmarried young people were invisible.   Basically none of the non-worship activities were relevant to college age singles. 

Perhaps my experience is unusual, but I tend to doubt it.

Are they family focused because there is some scriptural foundation that requires it, or is it just inertia? Is there any reason why congregations should be family-focused to the extent that unmarried young people (and unmarried middle-aged people and widows and widowers) should be excluded? Is it a positive thing that congregations should be so unwelcoming to single people? Perhaps that's why so few of the adults who are (for all practical intents and purposes) chased away from our congregations when they become adults, and when they do finally marry and start families, they return to churches other than Lutheran churches.
 
Want to know the best way to chase away an entire generation? Make the congregations unwelcoming to single adults, so that they stop attending when they leave their parents' homes. Enough of them will eventually marry people of other faith traditions, and when the time comes to return to church with their kids (since clearly, having children is a requirement for full participation membership), there's a good chance they'll go to a church of the other spouse's faith tradition, or they'll compromise on a church of neither of their faith traditions.
 
When I married my then Roman Catholic wife, we came very close to compromising on becoming Episcopalians, as we both saw that as the middle ground between Lutheran and Roman Catholic. And please, we don't need any nitpicking corrections about that compromise. For one thing, we didn't do it. For another, whether that perception is accurate or not, a great many Lutheran and Roman Catholic pewsitters perceive it as being accurate, and that perception is what drives choices.
 
We ended up raising our daughter Lutheran, but my wife didn't officially convert until after we had been married over 20 years, several years after I became a Lay Worship Leader.
 

swbohler

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #335 on: September 22, 2011, 06:26:51 PM »
JAQ,

If contemprorary worship and/or mega-churches are to be the backbone of the synod, then they had better start giving more.  My understanding is that these churches give far less to district and synod, on average, than do the tired old liturgical churches.

Harry Edmon

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #336 on: September 22, 2011, 07:15:14 PM »
For what it's worth, I just received an email from the district office with a FAQ page on the sale of the campus properties.  I assume it was sent to everyone in the MNS district...

I just found the link to the actual letter I received. Here it is...

http://mns.lcms.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Vq-gxLbP3os%3d&tabid=206&mid=791

Here is ULC's response to this letter:

http://www.ulcmn.org/Files/Save%20ULC%20Files/MNS%20Dist%20FAQ-Notated-2.pdf
Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

Dave Benke

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #337 on: September 22, 2011, 07:57:52 PM »
Just to set the record straight - as far as this particular evangelical catholic is concerned - I have no opposition to well-prepared and mature laity leading studies; I next to never share my Sunday Bible Class as I regard that a primary feature of my calling here, but have on occasion, last one I think was a dear lady who is a Bible translator and works in areas hostile to Christianity; our LWML always meets without the pastor and engages in Bible Study and discussion; opposition to small group ministry (i.e., conventicles) as it was at one time being pushed is not at all the same thing as saying that a student cannot lead a Bible study.  Most pastors I know would be delighted to hear of students getting together to study the Word of God; provided, of course, that it didn't BECOME a conventicle by substituting for the regular nourishment of the congregation gathered around the table of the Lord's Word and Meal.  Next straw man, please?

That's what I thought, and that's basically what I do.  If there are pastors insecure enough to claim the sole responsibility for all teaching, they're just mistaken.  And I agree completely with Mike - the small group Bible study folks are normally way MORE likely to attend the Divine Service. 

As to SW's thesis that the large churches give less, I might grant that on a percentage of budget from the parish basis, but not on the raw numbers.  Our larger parishes are the backbone of our district budget in terms of just straight dollars and cents.  I would guess that's true Synod-wide.  Do you have some statistical evidence for your thesis, SW, or is that more a local phenomenon?

Dave Benke

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #338 on: September 22, 2011, 08:06:34 PM »
Yup, you are right, President Benke.

A congregation that averages attendance of 80/Sunday gives $6,000/year to District/Synod. A congregation that averages 1500/Sunday gives $10,000/year to District/Synod.

You are correct. In "raw numbers" the megachurch gives more.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

mqll

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #339 on: September 22, 2011, 08:37:57 PM »
Mike Gehlhausen,

(whose primary vocation right now is cheering on the Rangers who are up right now, 2-1)

You cheer because, unlike the Yankees, they have not clinched the division. :)

People who don't cheer for the Yankees are more likely to kick small animals, trip blind people, and scratch DVDs. That is just part of their vocation...



Evangel

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #340 on: September 22, 2011, 08:56:19 PM »
Mike Gehlhausen,

(whose primary vocation right now is cheering on the Rangers who are up right now, 2-1)

You cheer because, unlike the Yankees, they have not clinched the division. :)

People who don't cheer for the Yankees are more likely to kick small animals, trip blind people, and scratch DVDs. That is just part of their vocation...

And this Yankee fan's baseball cheering vocation will be complete (until the playoffs start) when the Red Sox slide out of Wild Card contention.   :P
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
Zion Lutheran Church, LCMC
Priddy, TX
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ACXXIII, "Your majesty will graciously take into account the fact that, in these last times of which the Scriptures prophesy, the world is growing worse and men are becoming weaker and more infirm."

mqll

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #341 on: September 22, 2011, 09:05:04 PM »
George Erdner,
 
I wonder why no one ever posts anything like that when I suggest that evangelism outreach should be deliberate and proactive, and I get jumped on by pastors who insist that all evangelism comes from their parishioners living their lives in Christian example and witness.

Well, I am sorry for not backing you up. Once again, when you argue that the only evangelism that laity need to do is really to be a passive witness to their faith...
 
I wonder if any of the pastors who raked me over the coals for not agreeing that it's enough that their congregation members are inspired to spread the word and no other evangelism is needed or even a good idea will jump in and disagree with what you wrote. (That's a rhetorical statement. I'm confident that they won't.)

Only because I know where they live...

jtpless

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #342 on: September 22, 2011, 09:55:32 PM »
I'm not sure how JAQ came to the conclusion that my rejection of "cell groups" (as in Carl George's "Meta Church" as is was called back then) meant that I did not allow students to lead Bible studies at ULC. That was not the case.

JTP+

George Erdner

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #343 on: September 22, 2011, 10:18:25 PM »
George Erdner,
 
I wonder why no one ever posts anything like that when I suggest that evangelism outreach should be deliberate and proactive, and I get jumped on by pastors who insist that all evangelism comes from their parishioners living their lives in Christian example and witness.

Well, I am sorry for not backing you up. Once again, when you argue that the only evangelism that laity need to do is really to be a passive witness to their faith...
 

That has never been my contention. I've said that it should be planned and deliberate, not something that everyone hopes simply happens. Clergy and laity alike need to be involved.

Dave Benke

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Re: University Lutheran Chapel (University of Minnesota) to be sold
« Reply #344 on: September 22, 2011, 10:21:57 PM »
Yup, you are right, President Benke.

A congregation that averages attendance of 80/Sunday gives $6,000/year to District/Synod. A congregation that averages 1500/Sunday gives $10,000/year to District/Synod.

You are correct. In "raw numbers" the megachurch gives more.

That's why I mentioned it, Don.  Although 1500 in attendance giving $10000 a year would jump up as extraordinarily wimpy.  Now there are other examples where the parish of 80 gives nothing and the one with 1500 gives $150000.   What are the real numbers?  Anyone with more than a guess?

Dave Benke